What kind of "liberal" defends the intimidation of young women?

This article is, of course, in reply to Pravit’s article directed at my Twitter responses to his stated position – that he privileges the rights of large powerful media companies to intimidate, harass and threaten young Thai women, over the rights of these young Thai women to live their lives free of such intimidation. Pravit makes his case by using such emotive words as “censorship” and “freedom of expression” but avoids equally powerful words such as “death threats”, “fear”,  “rape” and “beheading.”

That he describes me as “foreign supporter of the red-shirt movement” in his opening paragraph leads me to be in a position where I can introduce the irrelevance of Pravit’s personal background as well. The British-educated Pravit is from a very privileged elite Thai family and works for The Nation – a newspaper that has itself published its fair share of incitement whilst aligning itself with the extreme rightwing politics of the PAD/Dem Party.  Of course, I’d prefer to refer to Pravit as a “colleague” but his opening paragraph reveals that he considers my “foreignness” a more important point to consider than my actual arguments themselves.

I want to begin by utterly rejecting Pravit’s continued use of “false equivalence.” No, a Red Shirt being annoyed about someone criticizing Thaksin is not equivalent in any way shape or form to the terror of 112. One is intolerance on a personal level, which, I’m afraid will always exist but can be questioned and debated. The other is a legalized form of intolerance designed for political purposes only and to inflict fear into the hearts of critics. 112 comes complete with courts, police, prisons, army, cells, shackles and lengthy prison sentences. An intolerant Red Shirt is more likely to come with ear hurting shrieks and is not backed up by any law or form of state sanction. I’ve never personally encountered one single Red Shirt anywhere calling for a 112 law to defend Thaksin and challenge Pravit to come up with evidence of that. There is rationally, legally, factually and intellectually no equivalence whatsoever between the two and to claim so is a deceit.

Secondly, Pravit’s other equivalence is completely undone when he compares Orm’s placard to Manager’s incitement. What nonsense. One is a private individual expressing her opinion the other is large, powerful media company whose sole aim is to incite a threatening hate campaign in order to deter Orm and other persons from expressing their opinions. To then claim that doing anything to prevent a powerful media company like Manager from attacking a single woman like this is “censorship” is, once again, a deceit. Preventing incitement is preventing criminality, nothing more, nothing less.

And this points to the deceit at the centre of Pravit’s thinking. Not everyone is powerful, educated, linked to rich families and has a  job at a national newspapers. Some people just want to express their opinion and nothing more. They don’t have the power, family connections to deal with such threats and intimidations. They simply have to live with the awful, debilitating consequences of these threats/intimidations just to protect some journalist’s intellectual musings on what he considers to be “freedom of expression”.

What follows now is a slight re-write of something I wrote back in August 2011 and it refers to the well-known story of Kantoop – the single 17-year-old woman who had a massive hate campaign launched against her and whom almost had her life destroyed by that campaign. It also looks at the case of Rwanda – a developing country in Africa which experienced a terrible genocide, partly inspired by the kind of people and actions whom Pravit would’ve wanted to protect the rights of. In quite horrifying terms Rwanda is THE case-study of the limits of freedom of expression. That these limits are even more important in the kind of tense situation as that facing Thailand, is an issue that Pravit and his acolytes can’t duck. If he doesn’t, well, any resulting bloodshed produced by the types of incitements Pravit wants to protect will be on his hands.

Back in 2010, as the Thai people were busy counting the corpses resulting from former-PM Abhisit’s Bangkok massacre, a young 17-year-old girl left a message on her public Facebook page. The message was a rebuke to Thailand’s royalty that was so mild it didn’t even attract a charge under Thailand’s draconian lese majeste. But what it did attract was something far more sinister.

Within days of making the comment this young woman began to attract a vicious and prolonged hate campaign. Threats to physically attack and murder her were made in their 100s.  Her home address and personal details were shared via social media, while her family also experienced similar levels of intimidation.

The people leading this campaign didn’t engage in a debate about the merits or not of what this young woman said (I am neither defending nor attacking her comments) but just poured out an endless stream of incitement to violence. It was as disgusting and revolting a thing I have witnessed in Thailand and absolutely breached this woman’s freedom of speech and her right to live a life free of such threats. Real-life consequences followed as universities withdrew offers of places on undergraduate courses and she became terrified to step out onto the street. She even changed her name and re-applied but was tracked down and attacked again.

What did the government or police do to protect this young woman’s rights? Absolutely nothing. In fact they remained resolutely silent, not only during that particular hate campaign, but also when Thailand’s far-right began to set-up Facebook pages filled with photos of dead Red Shirt activists entitled “I enjoy seeing Red Shirt corpses”. Broadcast media discussing political matters were censored and shut down while the extreme-right, who spewed out often racist, threatening programming remained untouched.

Fast-forward to 2011 and I am attending a discussion on Thailand’s lese majeste law at the Prachatai offices in central Bangkok. One of my friends, a highly-respected Thai human rights advocate and I are having a private chat on civil disobedience. “It’s very hard to say anything about lese majeste,” he told me. “And that’s not because of the police and the courts. It’s more about the kind of threatening hate campaign Thailand’s extreme rightwing media engage in. They threaten your family, your friends, publish your home address and spread nasty malicious lies. I am more scared of this.”

Yet, leading liberal voices, such as Pravit, seem unable to grasp the troublesome issue of the kinds of hate campaigns outlined above. As Pravit suggests in his article The Grey Area of Freedom of Expression in Thailand protecting the freedom of speech of people to engage in this kind of threatening and intimidating hate campaign overrides the rights of the victims of such campaigns. This is decidedly ill-considered. No democracy on earth tolerates such threats to be repeatedly made – and let’s not forget that in the developing world allowing such campaigns to flourish can have potentially horrific consequences as the Rwandan genocide revealed.

There is little doubt now that Rwandan genocide of 1994 was partly inspired by the mass media radio broadcasts of Hutu fanatics. These radio broadcasts engaged in a months-long campaign of racially profiled denigration and hatred that made clear calls for violence and intimidation. The Tutsis – 800,000 died in the genocide – were singled out and compared to animals who should be slaughtered. Tutsi women were repeatedly referred to as sexual objects who should be raped and defiled. When some voices said these radio broadcasts should be shut down “liberals” demanded the right to freedom of speech be protected and that this right to call for slaughter, rape, murder and violence, in a Rwanda already on the edge of hostilities, be respected and revered. (The Media and the Rwandan Genocide, available online here, is essential reading – h/t @petitpor. Freakonomics.com in a posting called When Radio Kills also refer to a study which states that the Rwandan radio stations dramatically increased the violence in the areas they were broadcasting in.)

Students of Thai history will know of a similar and notorious case involving former-PM Samak Sundaravej. In 1976, as students held protests inside Bangkok’s Thammasat University, Samak, a presenter on an extreme rightwing Thai Army-owned radio station, exhorted and incited people to attack the students. The resulting massacre, when dozens of the students were murdered in the most brutal fashion, has gone down as one of the most shameful moments in Thailand’s post-war history.

This all raises a question Thai liberals can’t duck – who deserves more protection? Those using the media to threaten and incite violence or those being threatened? And, of course, in a country where media ownership is concentrated in the hands of the military and wealthy extreme rightwing fanatics, should such powerful people be able to intimidate and threaten ordinary members of the public as and when they choose? If liberals condemn governments for engaging in such hate campaigns why shouldn’t they take a stand against powerful private sector interests when they do the same? And, finally, should liberals and progressives, and those committed to establishing Thai democracy, be mounting campaigns to defend the rights of those who engage in such hate campaigns?

This for me isn’t a “censorship” issue. It’s about a 17-year-old women being allowed to freely express their views without being intimidated or threatened by large media companies.  Claiming that creating legal protections for a young woman in those circumstances is "censorship" is, in my opinion, a grave intellectual deceit. Furthermore, it actually belittles and degrades any anticensorship campaign to the point where it is defending criminals attacking young, defenceless women.

It seems that some people are confusing “tolerance” – protected by law and which allows a genuine pluralism of voices to emerge – with the freedom to infringe the rights of others using the media as a vehicle to instill fear and incite violence. Making threatening hate campaigns that incite violence illegal under criminal law and stripping broadcast licences from mass media outlets that engage in it, from whichever political position, doesn’t mean censorship or intolerance. It actually leads to the protection of a space where a fully-formed debate can take place free of threat or intimidation. And yes, the limits of what can be catergorised as intimidation are fairly easy to decide upon in law – there are countless examples of this. The UK’s Broadcasting Code and the Press Complaints Commission’s code of practice are two examples of how to regulate against the kind of threatening, often racist, sometimes homophobic and certainly politically-tinged harassment that is prevalent in Thailand without losing the essential democratic rights to both freedoms of speech and expression. Sanctions in the UK include fines for newspapers and the withdrawal of broadcasting licences. Incitement to violence against individuals would most likely be considered criminal acts that would be dealt with by the courts – defamation and libel are purely dealt at a civil level.

A final thought – Thailand’s “liberals” are easily well-informed enough to be able to call for the kind of balanced value-driven regulatory media environment where the sorts of hate campaigns described here have no place. Being liberal, progressive and tolerant doesn’t mean allowing the powerful to intimidate the weak. It is precisely the opposite.

Comments

Would suggest anyone with a

Would suggest anyone with a greater interest in this subject to look at this excellent report produced by the US Holocaust Memorial Museum. http://www.ushmm.org/genocide/spv/pdf/summary.pdf

It covers the complexities of the issue far better than I have and

To simply dismiss anyone trying to curtail "hate speech" as somehow engaging in or encouraging censorship, particularly in the context of Thailand where violence is a vey clear possibility, is dangerous and is an attempt to shut down the debate.

Pravit also once told me that the incitement in Rwanda only became a crime when people were actually killed. That's actually not true. Incitement to "genocide" is a clear breach of international law and a direct breach of UN's own Genocide Convention. No actual "genocide" has to exist for the incitement of it to be a breach of international law.

andrew: liberal educated

andrew: liberal educated thais such as Pravit have one thing in common: a shared dislike of Thaksin (paradoxically if you ask them they cannot really explain why, except some dribble about unproven corruption and that [if left leaning] he was rich [perhaps a crime in itself?]. At the same time tacitly having to acknowledge that he was actually quite effective in redistributing power and benefits outwards and downwards from these traditional Bangkok families (ask the peasants & urban poor how their livelihoods improved during TRT years). so Pravit et al, have many strange bedfellows and alliances that may appear contradictory. dont expect straight forward responses.

Jim Thanks. I've come to

Jim

Thanks.

I've come to understand that democratisation is as much a threat to the entrenched privileges of Thai middle/upper class "liberals" as it is to anyone else.

Sad really.

They don't loathe Thaksin because he is corrupt, criminal or brutal - they loathe him because he unleashed something they can't control and something that looks them directly in the eye and says "we are equal to you".

Andrew - I like and agree

Andrew - I like and agree much of your thinking, but the proleier-than-thou tone that permeates everything you write wears extremely thin and detracts from what you have to say.

Thanks John L. Will bear your

Thanks John L. Will bear your comment in mind.

Thanks.

John L. Any comment on the

John L.

Any comment on the actual issues I raise here?

Probably because of my innate

Probably because of my innate sense of optimism and utopian hopes for mankind in general, I have had my psyche shaken considerably by events in Thailand - from well before the mid-1800s when the Lao king was given such an incredible introduction into viciousness, to today particularly after Ah Kong was needlessly hounded to death, quite literally, but those fervent loyalists you speak of.
The hate speech incident you speak of is but a drop in the bucket to many others instances in the past, happening now, and to happen in the future. There is such an amount of absolute hatred in Thailand toward various things - most of which have to do with differences and expressed opinions that slap silly faces - that it is disheartening even to recognize it. I think that is why many of my fellow returned Peace Corps volunteers, living in Thailand or not, fail to openly express their discomfort or twinges of conscience that remind them time to time that things here are amiss.
Back in 2005, I believe, a local ultra-royalist but Red Shirt leader (That's a mix!) began informing her radio program listeners for two or more hours week, and then per day, that I had committed lese majeste, that my Thai-born wife and I were both foreigners that needed to be run out of the country, that my wife's father was a Muslim (hostess then added, "Of course there ARE good Muslims.") although he was Hindu...but who is listening, right? The radio hostess kept at this, actually filed formal lese majeste accusation against me with police, committed and encouraged violence against monks in a local temple who had filed sexual impropriety charges against her favorite temple abbot, and so on. Anyway, despite my countless efforts to bring this hate speech, which it was, to the attention of authorities for some action and restraint, all I got from the governor was, "What do you want? I can't stop everyone from cursing one another."

I have read quite a lot of Pravit's writings, and kind of wonder whether or not he is being judged a bit off the mark because he is Thai.

"I have read quite a lot of

"I have read quite a lot of Pravit's writings, and kind of wonder whether or not he is being judged a bit off the mark because he is Thai."

Indeed, I am of the same view. Much of what Pravit writes seems sensible and reasonable. Does he really work at the Nation? I wouldn't know, I never read the worthless rag. He must feel like a minority of one if he does though, everyone else from Suttichai down seems to be practicing their moronic skills most of the time.

Thailand needs all the sensible people it can get, don't be like John Francis Lee (putting the "Francis" in makes me feel important folks) and attack his views just because he's Thai.

That would be racist - and even though I know perfectly well he's a racist, and even though he knows perfectly well he's a racist, perhaps many people are still waking up to that fact.

I read Pravit's article and I

I read Pravit's article and I thought all he was doing was expressing concern for the 'slippery slope' effect that restrictions on the freedom of speech might have. Hate speech is not not part of the 'right to free speech', but at what point of hate speech would the bar be placed, is open for discussion by Thai Society. And Pravit initiated that discussion.

"Precisely, my dear Watson."

"Precisely, my dear Watson."

KD Actually, without wishing

KD

Actually, without wishing to blow my trumpet, I initiated that discussion back in August 2011 and with Pravit on twitter.

And yes, he does believe that Manager, Social Sanctions etc should be allowed to conduct hate campaigns against single women.

Do you?

Let's not swing over to

Let's not swing over to Tony's method of banter, if we can refrain from doing so. If we can get a single but concise paragraph quoting Pravit and specifically citing exactly what in it is supposed to support hate speech, it might help shorten replies.

I just re-re-re-read

I just re-re-re-read http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/3241, Pravit's article, and for the life of me can't see a single thing in it that supports hate speech or defense of hate speech. I do see a strong opinion that advocates more tolerance rather than censorship, and in a remote fashion that can result in allowing too much water over the dam, but only indirectly.
Judgment is a huge issue in areas of freedom of expression vs. what we call censorship. Unlike my good friend over at FACTTHAI, I do not advocate total absence of censorship. I believe in censorship, in a real way. Even the US Supreme Court has ruled in favor of censorship, under extreme confines. In fact, censorship is an important part of our society, around the world. From school to job, from home to hospital, censorship abounds. People are not permitted to write certain things in certain places about certain people and events. Sensitivities are part of the reason for this. However, sensitivities can get out of hand, as in Thailand, and go completely overboard in drowning out legitimate - not just criticism - but even inquiry. Again, Thailand is cited here.
If anyone wants to hear the political equivalent of hate speech, just listen to InfoWars or Republic Broadcasting, to name only two.
Today Blue Sky rebroadcast the Democrat's gathering in Bangkok yesterday, with Abhisit Vejjajiva plaintively referring to endless terror tactics used by Thaksin's supporters and their plunge toward creating a nation with no rules except the rules of the winner. No appeals, no mercy, no restraint.
The issue of hate speech is part and parcel of Thai society and cultural values that permit, encourage and often protect hate speech. For the real enemies of the establishment that hate speech is also often encouraged to the point where it results in quashing the unwanted little uprisings against elitist control of the country.
Ah Kong is a martyr in this clash between a society encouraged to be full of hatred and some of its members who are tired of being forced into stupidity. That's it plain and simple. There are institutionalized beliefs that fight against restraint and tolerance. They include:
1. conviction that no one understands the "Thai way" except Thais.
2. resultant belief that because disagreement with beliefs exists, it is due to lack of understanding.
3. willingness to crush honestly different behavior and speech because it has been taught to be repugnant.

Frank (had to split this into

Frank (had to split this into two parts)

There is no doubt whatsoever that Pravit believes that the hate campaigning of SS, Manager, ASTV etc is a freedom of expression issue even if it extends to violent threats etc.

This then means he considers the rights of those to engage in hate campaigns, threats etc above the rights of those women to live a life free of threat and intimidation.

His entire article makes the case for that.

"Freedom of expression" then becomes a tool of the powerful (in Thailand, the military and elite-backed media) to prevent a proper discourse. Pravit has, in my opinion, become their unwitting tool in leveraging this debate towards it being about censorship rather than actually being about opening up a genuine space for freedom of political expression and how one then protects that space.

Pravit also makes a number of illogical and baseless false equivalencies in order to sustain that debate. When I've questioned him on these he admits that there is no evidence of Red Shirts engineering anything like the kind of hate campaigns the ultra-royalists engage in or of any Red Shirt calling for a Thaksin-112 law.

When I once questioned Pravit about Rwanda and if he considered the use of hate speech in that genocide criminal he replied yes because violence actually occurred.

In fact, he's wrong. No violence has to occur for such incitement to be considered incitement. The incitement itself in such a context is criminal and is nothing whatsoever to do with "freedom of expression" but all about denying freedom to others.

I guess, in Europe, where people actually lived and endured the full set of horrors of fascism, racism and the full consequences of allowing the kind of hatred/threats Pravit believes are worth defending in the name of FoE, we're a bit "tougher" on such issues. There's not one country in Europe where these kind of Thai-style hate campaigns would be allowed to flourish. Would anyone seriously claim that Thailand has more FoE than the UK, for example?

No violence has to occur for

No violence has to occur for such incitement to be considered incitement. The incitement itself in such a context is criminal and is nothing whatsoever to do with "freedom of expression" but all about denying freedom to others.

It's bewildering how people get confused about "free speech" and "the right to scream hate". As you point out, one has nothing to do with the other.

But I am confused. On 03 Dec 2010, The Bangkok Post gave Arisman the chance to explicitly call for violence:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/209644/abhisit-survives-but-only-for-a-while

…There is also another faction tasked to fight covertly with every means against those that serve the elite, including biased media, ministers, soldiers, police, civil servants, independent organisations and judges. If necessary, these people must be eliminated. Any red shirt that has a chance and is near an intended target will be tasked to do the job.

Mr Arisman believes that by getting rid of these people, the red shirts will create full democracy with freedom, justice and equality...

Criminal incitement, by your (correct) definition. .

A week later, Arisman made the following statements in an interview:

...the struggle for democracy must join together armed rebellion and a mass movement.

We are not violent.

The Red Shirts didn’t burn down Central World...There were no Red Shirts there.

I don’t really have any information about the Black Shirts. I don’t know who they are or where they are from.

[Seh Daeng] had no intention to conduct any violence...I want to re-affirm that the Red Shirts do not like violence.

I believe in the theory that nowhere changes in a completely peaceful way.

It would be great, from my perspective, to have a guerrilla force...

What’s important is the core Red Shirt movement want a peaceful solution...

So basically he's just insulting the interviewer to his face. Lying about everything, contradicting himself back and forth, calling for violence in one sentence, claiming to be peaceful in the next. The interviewer missed all of this absurdity, of course; one has to assume he's either incompetent or playing the foil, with questions like:

How many people, in your opinion, do you think the amart would be prepared to kill in order to keep power?

Is that journalism?

Post 1/2

Post 2/2 Of course the

Post 2/2

Of course the interviewer would have known the truth about Arisman’s criminal incitement.

http://youtu.be/58f-hT110XE
http://youtu.be/nxJWzLAVMhw
http://youtu.be/4IciWe30QDs
http://youtu.be/SF3YfnPiV-Y
http://youtu.be/vBDm-jA3N80

In the last video, there is footage of Arisman’s criminal incitement:

"You can come up here to get your gasoline. If there's one million Red Shirts in Bangkok, all carrying one million litres of gasoline, I guarantee you we will turn the city of Bangkok into a sea of fire."

It only Arisman were interviewed by someone with your moral compunction, fierce dedication to Truth and history of flatly rejecting those who incite violence & hatred.

http://asiancorrespondent.com/43490/interview-with-thailands-most-wanted-arisman-pongruangrong/

EXCLUSIVE: Interview with Thailand’s most wanted – Arisman Pongruangrong
By Andrew Spooner

Oh.

So you don't actually mean the good things you're saying?

This article is just more lies for the propaganda war?
_________

The amart are stupid fools. Unable to act in their own best interests, they live in misery and fear of their moronic aristocracy and wealth being taken from them. They could live in happiness in equality but they want to live in an Economic Apartheid instead. The Red Shirts are stupid fools. Unable to act in their own best interests, they live in misery and hatred of...whomever their latest patron tells them to hate.

Don't get me started on the Army.

The only thing that can save Thailand is Education and Truth. The Red Shirts don't need more patronising lies, Andrew; they need Integrity, Ethics and this country is being choked by the Lies told as a rationalised means to foolish ends. The same old ends. We all need to be told the Truth.

We rarely get it from Pravit.

We rarely get it from you.

I'm nobody, but if it were up to me; we'd get the Truth all the time, from both of you.

Frank (part two) Personally I

Frank (part two)

Personally I find it a complete deceit on Pravit's part to contextualise the argument as being about censorship at all. Protecting young women from the hatred and threats of the elite/military backed media is nothing to do with censorship and all to do with democracy, freedom and social justice. Or maybe the lives of these young women are just an irrelevance to Pravit? Except for making wooly exhortations for "tolerance" not once in that article does he set how he thinks young women facing such a campaign can be protected. Not once does he consider, in full, the rights of ordinary Thais to live a life free of the threats of the amaart controlled media. What we get instead is 1000 words of rationalisation of the rights of powerful media people to intimidate the weakest members of society all in the name of "freedom of expression". It's insidious stuff.

As I said, if any bloodshed occurs as a result of these hate campaigns, just as in Rwanda, the blood will also be on those who defended the rights of people to conduct such hate campaigns. Let's hope it never comes to that.

long live the king

long live the king ยาวอยู่กษัตริย์

Ted Paulson Every hate

Ted Paulson

Every hate campaign and incitement has to be set "in context".

That's why Pravit's false equivalencies don;t work.

A single woman, a private citizen, from a "lower class" background, without connections, without a family name, without capital (cultural, social or financial) and without access to foreign education and a network of supporters in the international media doesn't stand a chance against a huge media empire, funded by powerful rich people, with connections to the army and elite.

And this use of the USA's model of FoE doesn't cut it either. Ordinary Thais, in general, have far less legal and political rights than ordinary Americans.

As for my Arisman - I don't have a problem with him being arrested on incitement charges. As has been pointed out ad infinitum elsewhere is that, so far, only one side in this conflict has been imprisoned even though, quite clearly, the army and Abhisit govt acted in a murderous fashion.

Ted As for my interview - it

Ted

As for my interview - it was done over an appalling telephone line, in very limited time, with everything going through a translator. But I stil asked him about the violence - in fact half of my questions were about Red Shirt violence. Here are some -

Q During the time when the Red Shirts occupied the Ratchaprasong area you made a speech threatening to burn down the city – do you regret this?

A The purpose of my speech was to attempt to dissuade the army from either attacking us or staging a coup. If there was a coup I wanted the army to be warned that people might fight back by using petrol against heavily armed troops. That they wouldn’t just be able to just kill us. I don’t regret giving this speech because I wasn’t provoking people to burn down the city for no reason but only as a defensive action because the Red Shirts had no arms.

Q Was burning the Central World department store justified?

A The Red Shirts didn’t burn down Central World. It was a government action in order to justify the shooting of the Red Shirts. Most of the places where the fires were set were already under government control when they were started. There were no Red Shirts there. The army started the fires.

Q Do you think violence will be necessary to change Thailand and Thai politics?

These days the government is using violence against the people so, of course, one day the people will have had enough and will use violence against the government. I believe in the theory that nowhere changes in a completely peaceful way. This has never happened anywhere on this planet. It just doesn’t exist. If we are not armed we will lose because we can’t fight back. Actually, the Red Shirts never wanted to harm anybody, we just called for a new election and to amend the constitution via a parliamentary process. We just want people’s votes to be respected.

I can't figure out who the

I can't figure out who the bigger fraud is - Spooner, US State Department-Soros funded Prachatai, or Pravit who has several Soros-funded "fellowships" under his belt. All have been caught in incredibility hypocritical contradictions of their stated principles, Prachatai works directly for a foreign government, Pravit has received "training" from foreigners, and Spooner - well - he may actually be drinking his own kool aid.

The infighting is indicative of incredible narcissism and a complete lack of real convictions.

How this idiotic argument - or anything that Prachatai piddles on about on its over-funded propaganda front benefits the average underprivileged Thai is beyond me. You are all a bunch of snobs as far removed from the people's plights as you are to promoting any solution that will help them.

Shame on all of you!

The answer is easy Tony. The

The answer is easy Tony. The biggest fraud is you. TC just conjures up all of his piddle which is then dribbled out of racist and extremist crevices. Shame on who??

I'm glad there's something

I'm glad there's something you can't figure out, Tony. I thought you had everything sussed out.

I know it goes against the

I know it goes against the grain for the "commentariat" but, actually, I have to say I partly agree with Tony C.

I think, at the moment, Pravit's wounded pride because I sent him a few tweets is meaningless in terms of the wider issues that are going down with the constitutional court. As i mentioned in the piece I wrote the bulk of the above 10months ago and gave it to Pravit a couple of days before he wrote his. I also wrote to Prachatai and said I think this is a ridiculously waste of their resources and space but this debate was Pravit's suggestion, not mine.

I was thinking of just linking to my old piece as my response but felt there was a personal barb in Pravit's piece so wanted to respond in more detail.