Press release by Luksna Kornsilpa
Luksna Kornsilpa has sent a press release plus an article in Thai and English to the press today. According to the press release, more charges are to be filed against many people including police and state attorney for malfeasance. Besides Thaksin and his cronies, those who will sign the petition to the King will be charged as well.
PRESS RELEASE - Thursday July 9, 2009 11:00 am Metropolitan Police Bureau Headquarters Bangkok
Summary of the Charges Filed & Major Issues of each Case plus Additional Notes
In addition to the charges under article 112 of Thai Criminal Law further charges are to be filed this day against Thaksin Shinawatra, Jakrapob Penkhair, Veera Musikapong, Nattawoot Saikuea, Jatuporn Prompan, Marwaan Macan-Makar, Jonathan Head, other FCCT directors and UDD members that are implicated in crimes against the nation. Criminal Code articles 107, 113, 114, 116, 133, 135/1, 210, 213, 215, 217, 220, 288 and 289 are all used and each of the accused will have at least 2 or more of the aforementioned articles filed against them. Instant action is demanded as the cases expose a co-ordinated gang of conspirators committing acts of treason and concealment that not only threaten the Kingdom of Thailand and her national security but also insult Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II and the constitutional monarchy of the United Kingdom of Great Britain that she reigns (not rules). Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is protected by article 133 of Thai Criminal Law.
To represent the Kingdom of Thailand and her people Ms. Luksna Kornsilpa, 57 years of age; an analyst, management system auditor, industrial sector consultant and hazard analysis specialist having an engineering education with a solid management background shall file the charges against all conspirators identified herein and hereafter.
Presently she is working on her doctoral research in visualization (forming correct and twisted perceptions, understandings and misunderstandings through graphical and textual information).
Ms Luksna has researched, detected, analyzed and documented evidences of numerous acts of treason and treachery using sound academic principles.
Extensive scrutiny of Ms Luksna's meticulous reports clearly reveals and proves without a shadow of a doubt that there is an organized underground movement that aims to destabilize and overthrow Thailand's Monarchical Democracy, it is also highly evident that fugitive convict Thaksin Shinawatra is both the puppet-master and highest benefactor of the now exposed treason plot. Ms Luksna reveals numerous techniques used by the plotters including both audio-lingual and visualization tactics that target those with below average education who make up the majority of Thailand's population.
Condemning facts highlighted include the fact that Mr Jakrapob Penkair and his cronies conspired with the directors of the Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand in a fashion designated under Thai criminal law as literally being a “Brothel of Criminals” which when defined by judges equates to a “Den of Conspirators”. This event was the first of a long series of propaganda events staged at the FCCT and during the event Mr Jakrapob who according to the FCCT was speaking as Thaksin's spokesman made a proclamation that a violent rebellion would be staged to create chaos and destabilize the nation and change the political system to bring absolute power to his treacherous Thaksinophilia faction.
From the FCCT stage Mr Jakrapob deliberately lied and made fraudulent statements attacking Thailand's highest institution thereby creating a new tool to add fuel to his underground insurgency both nationally and globally.
Mr Jakrapob knew that various stunts had created resentment and misunderstandings regarding the use of Lese Majeste laws and that coupled with the powerful network and corruption of the Thaksin regime there would be little chance that anyone would dare fight back to protect the nation's developing democracy. Mr Jakrapob had his speech disseminated via the FCCT's sale of DVDs and the voice of many directors along with a campaign to remove the Lese Majeste laws which would also mean having to rewrite the constitution.
The DVDs sold by the FCCT each contained the speech and question and answer sessions for ONE event on each DVD. These DVDs were sold to the public (non-members) until the FCCT fell under closer scrutiny and on 12th December 2008 the FCCT announced that their DVDs would no longer be available to the public but only to paid up members.
Of the numerous events and activities of the FCCT board designed to destabilize the Monarchical Democracy, 3 prominent events resulted in Lese Majeste charges being filed against speakers and presenters.
These were:
1. “Democracy and Patronage in Thailand” on the 29th August 2007, the official invitation to the event drafted by the FCCT board stated that the speaker “is out on bail” and “After a particularly turbulent evening of protest in July outside General Prem's house, Jakrapob and seven other UDD leaders were charged by police with illegal assembly of more than 10 people, defying police orders and attacking police, and instigating disturbances.” The invitation ended with “Join us for what promises to be a provocative evening.” Charges were subsequently filed against Mr Jakrapob for the content of his speech which was found to be full of lies, deceit and unwarranted hatred towards the highest institution causing him to resign from his ministerial position. note: Many British nationals were shocked and outraged at how Mr Jakrapob rudely lashed out at Her Highness Queen Elizabeth II from the FCCT stage stating amongst other things that Tony Blair had put her in her place, Mr Jakrapob was questioned by a British national and forced to concede that like the presenter of the event he had very poor knowledge regarding the Great British Monarchical Democracy and that most of what he knew he learned by watching a movie. Mr Jakrapob arrogantly stated that Thaksin only had some loyalty for the monarchy.
2. “Coup, Capital and Crown” on 13th December 2007 at the FCCT also attracted Lese Majeste charges, the official invitation to the event asked questions such as “Why was there rivalry between monarchy and Thaksin?” would be answered. The question itself stunned many as it presumed that there was a rivalry in existence that even Thaksin himself has publicly denied. Any attempt to answer such a presumptuous question could indeed defame both the monarchy and fugitive convict Thaksin Shinawatra. (Ironically the title of this event was very similar to the name of a plot exposed by General Chawalit Yongchaiyut some time before the FCCT events in which Gen. Chawalit stated that an underground movement to discredit and destroy the military, monarchy and economy existed.)
3. “The State of Politics and the Way Forward for Thailand” on 9th December 2008 resulted in Lese Majeste charges being filed against 2 of the speakers Mr Veera Musikapong and Mr Nattawoot Saikuea. Again the speech was full of verbal vitriol that viciously attacked various groups whilst implicating and defaming the monarchy with lies. This speech led to Lese Majeste charges being filed against both Mr Veera and Mr Nattawoot just days before the Red Shirt movement took Bangkok by siege, this was the head on clash that Mr Jakrapob had announced in his speech in 2007. The official invitation to the event from the FCCT board stated “Join us for an insight into the nature of a crisis analysts say is the biggest to face Thailand since World War II.”
After careful examination of DVDs, hundreds of pages of documented evidence including witness statements from journalists and members of the public numerous further charges to be filed on 9th July 2009 include:
Extension of Case filed at Lumpini Police Station on June 30, 2009:
FCCT Board Further Charged with Article #210 “Criminal Conspiracy to destabilize National Security”
On 30th June board members of the FCCT were charged with Lese Majeste which means a maximum sentence of 15 years in jail. If a crime committed warrants a maximum sentence of more than 10 years and if the crime involves 5 or more conspirators then article 210 can be applied. This means that the FCCT has acted as a “Den of Conspirators” or more literally as a “Brothel of Treacherous Criminals”. One article in this group of laws has in the past been used against Chinese Triad organizations that threatened the nation and now similar articles in this case apply to the FCCT, this means that directors involved in acts that destabilize national security are by legal definition Criminals; not Correspondents.
Case 1 of July 9, 2009:
Police and Attorney General Charged with Treason and Information Concealment
Government officers in both the Police Department and the Attorney General Office have been found to be delaying prominent cases affecting national security and concealing information of a nature that is forbidden to hide by laws designed to ensure transparency and protect the nation. Charges of malfeasance have already been filed against some officers and on July 9 more serious charges are to be filed against officers whose malfeasance poses a threat to the stability of the nation and her internal security. The Chief of the Royal Thai Police, the commanders of certain divisions of the Royal Thai Police and the Chief Attorney are to be officially charged. Some of these officials will also have charges of treason and conspiracy filed against them.
Case 2 of July 9, 2009:
Thaksin, Treason Leaders/Supporters and FCCT Board Charged with Committing National Security and Royal Safety Crimes
On 9th July other laws that protect National Internal Security and the safety of the Monarch are to be filed against Thaksin Shinawatra, Leaders of the UDD and the FCCT board. These laws empower special teams of officers; allow for rapid issuance of arrest warrants and the penalty is execution. Government officials delaying such cases would find cases filed against themselves for malfeasance.
Additional notes:
The above mentioned cases will be processed fairly. Due to their sensitive nature, importance to national stability and the irresponsible behavior of some media outlets that seek to distort and deceive, only reliable fully accredited media without criminal charges filed against them will be provided with case details providing that the details do not violate laws of the land which are to be respected by all those on Thai soil be they Thai nationals or foreigners.
Although due to the dissemination efforts of the FCCT board the content is widely known the exact details will not be printed in this press release as repeating a slight could be perceived as Lese Majeste by those who do not understand that actually Lese Majeste cases must have negative intentions before they are taken seriously and of course those Thai nationals who are not interested in filing any case would still feel saddened and hurt to learn how evil and unethical the board of the FCCT had been. The goal is to restore peace and unity to Thailand and although some things are best forgotten it is difficult to forget when these subversive activities continue to flourish, it is hoped that these unprecedented cases will teach the guilty parties a serious lesson in journalistic ethics and help Thailand and her people start afresh in a society where people are not separated by the color of a T-shirt.
Mr Jakrapob resigned when he was exposed and indeed all those in positions of responsibility who have likewise been exposed should resign to prevent adding insult to injury.
Ms Luksna states, “Some media have distorted the facts recently, this is not an issue of freedom of speech. I fully support freedom of speech but do not support the dissemination of lies and propaganda in an underground movement to destabilize Thailand's economy and internal security. Foreign correspondents clubs and media alike are advised to examine the facts carefully before making biased statements, intelligent nations like China and Japan should be able to differentiate between news and lies. Lese Majeste cases should not be filed against anyone unless there is clearly malicious intent that can be proven, people cannot just file Lese Majeste cases against others when there is absence of motive as that would result in either the case not being processed or the accused receiving a Royal pardon after a short spell inside, the accuser could also be sued heavily if sufficient evidence is not provided to show serious malicious intent. Many media sources lack legal knowledge and are guilty of reporting that anyone can file a case against anyone; this is simply not true. His Majesty has stated himself that he is human and as such can do wrong. This does not however mean that people are free to make unwarranted accusations and lies regarding His Majesty as such behavior would anger his subjects and cases would certainly be filed, especially if the Lese Majeste statements were being used as a tool for subversive threats to internal security."
It is interesting to note that numerous blogs that appear on the Internet attempting to protect the FCCT from their crimes are written by anonymous bloggistas and clandestine journalists.
It is also noteworthy that Thai law protects EVERYBODY from defamation not only the Thai monarchy with article 112; article 133 protects all royal families all over the world and articles 326 and 328 protect all those on Thai soil both Thais and foreigners. Anyone filing false charges could find themselves with heavy counter charges filed against them so these laws are usually only used when there is solid evidence.
Ms Luksna's cases filed today are done so in good faith using internationally accepted research and analysis tools that enable the harvesting of concrete evidence to support all facts stated and accusations made. She is well known in data analysis circles and renowned for her attention to fine detail and high integrity. She is a certified translator of both German and English.
It is also noteworthy that Thai law protects EVERYBODY from defamation not only the Thai monarchy with article 112; article 133 protects all royal families all over the world and articles 326 and 328 protect all those on Thai soil both Thais and foreigners.
To avoid misunderstandings by foreign media it should also be noted that the term “Brothel of Criminals” is a literal translation of the legal term used for the crimes committed by a “den of conspirators”. A brothel is a place where numerous prostitutes gather to ply their trade and according to dictionaries the definition of a “prostitute” is usually given as:
n.
1. One who solicits and accepts payment for sex acts.
2. One who sells one's abilities, talent, or name for an unworthy purpose.
tr.v., -tut·ed, -tut·ing, -tutes.
1. To offer (oneself or another) for sexual hire.
2. To sell (oneself or one's talent, for example) for an unworthy purpose. use: to prostitute one's talents.
The “brothel of criminals” in this case refers to the second definition of prostitute.
The laws used in all these cases are all related to conspiracy to ruin the political system and the penalties are severe, those found guilty of violating article 107 will be subject to the death penalty.
"Freedom of Deceit" versus "Freedom of Speech"
Ms Luksna wrote an interesting piece on the FCCT case on June 30, 2009 entitled "Freedom of Deceit" versus "Freedom of Speech"
As an information specialist and management system consultant conducting doctoral research, she detects the abuse of "Freedom of Speech" as a means for "Freedom of Deceit" realization.
In the world of uncontrolled information overflow, LIES with dishonest purposes are passed efficiently over the mass media channels. Some have the target to erode national security.
In Thailand, the effort to change country's foundation was announced purposely by treason leaders at the FCCT. And a means to that change is through LIES. As traitors themselves lack the necessary ethics and qualifications to be capable national leaders, they need to soil the existing foundation with LIES.
Among LIES to soil country foundation, Lese Majeste is the most frequently used. Agent Provocateurs foolishly believe that if charges are filed against them that they will make threats to continue telling the world that such law can be easily abused which is far from true, they will also try to use language like “draconian laws” to discredit even the laws of the land that they live in.
Sadly and surprisingly, the FCCT board got involved in the divisive LIES content fabrication and distribution!
As judicial process might not have full and proper access to the cases filed against traitors, as they have often been screened out by upstream authorities; the cases filed against FCCT will finally bring back all rejected cases directly to the judiciary for prompt processing so that Thailand can return to stability and social unity.
When the case is analyzed in court, mass media around the world would realize how "Freedom of Deceit" is discriminated from "Freedom of Speech".
Mass media cry for rights without duties and responsibilities. This will be their first lesson that, in order to possess rights, ones need to show adequate duties and responsibilities.
This is just a part of the many duties of this astute information specialist, in her effort to make world's information highways cleaner.
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I guess Ms Luksna must have
I guess Ms Luksna must have been delighted when Thaksin restricted press freedom during his premiership. When Thaksin filed lawsuits against journalists and media outlets, I wonder whose side Ms Luksna was on. Did she side with Thaksin and hit out at the media for irresponsibly and unethically spreading LIES (sic) about him?
Mao Tse Tung, move over if
Mao Tse Tung, move over if you will!
The hardcore and rabid anti-democracy thread running out of this woman's mouth is seemingly now undeniable.
As well, now she is changing the name of Thailand's form of government from constitutional monarchy to monarchal democracy!
For all of her education and presumed qualifications for a Ph.D., it instead becomes clear that degrees may someday become a requirement to validate malicious ignorance.
Seemingly a person dangerous to common sense, as well as a real threat to national security. Surely her research, as carefully contrived as it is, will uncover her own wayward path.
Laksana has done us a favor, however, by uncovering the real face of the beast. Her sentiments are widespread and apparently growing.
What do people like this see when they look in the mirror? Obviously not their own reflections.
Forgot to ask...does anyone
Forgot to ask...does anyone have this woman's contact informatino - phone, address, email, etc." I think she needs to be contacted.
Forgot to ask...does anyone
Forgot to ask...does anyone have this woman's contact information - phone, address, email, etc." I think she needs to be contacted.
"Astute information
"Astute information specialist?"
With an MBA in information management myself (Colorado USA), I think I can attest to the idea that in Thailand there is much more information mismanagement and repression, selective filtering and guided release of alleged 'facts' and 'truths' than meaningful circulation of credible information and reliable honest statements, actions and reports of those statements and actions. There is also rampant disregard for human rights and the need to protect those rights via prohibition of violations.
"Among LIES to soil country foundation, Lese Majeste is the most frequently used. Agent Provocateurs foolishly believe that if charges are filed against them that they will make threats to continue telling the world that such law can be easily abused which is far from true, they will also try to use language like “draconian laws” to discredit even the laws of the land that they live in."
I tell you, I can not honestly tell the difference between communist dogma and this dogma. Perhaps the only meaningful difference is that is seems to be gripping Thailand around the throat and squeezing responsible freedom of speech AND legitimate democracy to an ever more quickening death.
A psychiatrist needs to be called in. As well, an English editor to correct the obvious grammatical and substantive errors in Laksan's tirade. The second comment, for instance, that says, "Lese majeste is the most frequently used (lie to soil the country) might be an English language error on Laksana's part, but it poetically describes the actual situation - does it not?
Comments: 1. Thailand is not
Comments:
1. Thailand is not a monarchal democracy as Laksana has falsely described the current form of government. It is a constitutional monarchy, and has been since 1932.
2. Laksana says, “In the world of uncontrolled information overflow, LIES with dishonest purposes are passed efficiently over the mass media channels. Some have the target to erode national security.” This kind of accusation is the same as those used in communist countries, such as state media in China.
3. “In Thailand, the effort to change country's foundation was announced purposely by treason leaders at the FCCT.” Distortion and name-calling. Accusing the FCCT of treason may be based on a fundamental personal predisposition against legitimate freedom of expression and changes needed to bring about a just and democratic society.
4. “As judicial process might not have full and proper access to the cases filed against traitors, as they have often been screened out by upstream authorities; the cases filed against FCCT will finally bring back all rejected cases directly to the judiciary for prompt processing so that Thailand can return to stability and social unity.” The concept of ‘full and proper’ is often deformed into a rabid search to find evidence to persecute whether that evidence exists or not.
5. “Mass media cry for rights without duties and responsibilities. This will be their first lesson that, in order to possess rights, ones need to show adequate duties and responsibilities.” First lesson? Hmmm....A false claim and communist-sounding one at best. It is being made to appear that media demands for the right to speak are the same as threats to national security.
6. “Presently she is working on her doctoral research in visualization (forming correct and twisted perceptions, understandings and misunderstandings through graphical and textual information). ... Ms Luksna reveals numerous techniques used by the plotters including both audio-lingual and visualization tactics that target those with below average education who make up the majority of Thailand's population.”
Dire assessment: Thailand is irrevocably on the way toward Chinese-style repression.
"Ms Luksna reveals numerous
"Ms Luksna reveals numerous techniques used by the plotters including both audio-lingual and visualization tactics that target those with below average education who make up the majority of Thailand's population."
Who does this statement damn the more, the alleged plotters or those responsible for the state of education in Thailand?
Not to mention that it is in
Not to mention that it is in fact a bit contradictory to declare that the MAJORITY of Thailand's population has a below AVERAGE educational level? Or is it an intentional oxymoron? Maybe Luksna is a poet too. Certainly not a good analyst.
We can now expose Khun Luksna
We can now expose Khun Luksna for her activities by following her blog.
http://lxntpe.blogspot.com/
Perhaps Agent Anderson can translate it for us. I hear that she may be posting some classified secret documents on her site and that the FCCT could sue her for disclosure crimes.
Ms Luksna has researched,
Ms Luksna has researched, detected, analyzed and documented evidences of numerous acts of treason and treachery using sound academic principles.
That a nutcase like this can cause charges to be brought against ordinary people... in a country where the charge itself leads to imprisonment without bail followed, after arbitrary and interminable delay, by secret trials for secret thought crimes... is testament to the depths to which the country has fallen under the Military-Democrat-PAD putsch fronted by Abhisit Vejjajiva.
Where there is smoke there is
Where there is smoke there is fire and smoke is pouring from the FCCT and its patrons. Obviously some fools believed that their media status would provide camouflage for an attack on a country, this is definitely not the first time that foreigners have meddled in the affairs of other countries and been discovered, from what I sense this story is about to explode. I hear that a rural geriatric journalist with a Viagra erection for LM is now on the warpath with the filer of complaints in what seems to be a war between 2 geriatric factions. Tomorrow I am going to read this story again, perhaps I had one to many glasses of scotch and my eyes are deceiving me and my imagination going wild. International Lese Majeste in a Bangkok brothel?????
Your comments seem to be the
Your comments seem to be the quality of those Laksana would gladly claim credit for. And as such, deserve only your own pat on the back.
I understand the BBC News
I understand the BBC News team have allready admitted their guilt!.Yes indeed they said they were guilty of having to hold back from reporting some important issues related to Thailand. Trying not provoke the senseability's of some Thai citizens and their authorities the BBC wants to avoid their Thai world service journalists getting thrown in jail.Its amazing what someone with distain for democracy and plenty of time on their hands can achieve!
FOREIGN CRIMINALS CLUB OF
FOREIGN CRIMINALS CLUB OF THAILAND (FCCT)_:
My Thai wife is totally revolted with the FCCT especially Johnny Head.
I would like to say that most intelligent people understand propaganda when they see it. It is very obvious that a lobbyist has paid these people to sell their souls. I have more respect for a prostitute than any of these media whores. Thailand is too kind and forgiving, elsewhere in the world they would not dare stoop so low. I say hang the buggers.
What has Queen Elizabeth got to do with Thai politics. I have no objection to the movie The Queen because it is just a movie but having dirty Thai politicians rattling off about Her Majesty in a Bangkok brothel is definitely unwarranted. The Thais may forgive these foul-mouthed troublemakers but I will not.
Finally I would like to say that most Westerners do not have this communist attitude of attacking monarchies that have helped modernize the world. God save our gracious Queen.
Finally I would like to say
Finally I would like to say that most Westerners do not have this communist attitude of attacking monarchies that have helped modernize the world. God save our gracious Queen.
Luksna's nutty call seems to have resounded throughout the dusty corridors of the imagination, in the nineteenth century wing of the imperial rest home.
Tomorrow I am going to read this story again, perhaps I had one to[o] many glasses of scotch and my eyes are deceiving me and my imagination going wild.
The outraged right-wing spills its drink but, recovering, blusters and shows the colors at Prachatai.
Does this right wing enemy of
Does this right wing enemy of the people think it OK to kill in the name of Buddhism-ethnic genocide of un-Thai Muslims in the South- and a non-elected head of state who does not stop his own people being murdered!
Re. Frederick's
Re. Frederick's comments...way to go, buddy! Rationality out the window and pure garbage being marketed as fact, truth, etc.
I am not sure what importance the rest of us are to give to you and your wife's feelings against the FCCT, but don't try to do the same thing other oppressors do and cram your views down our throats.
Communist attitude - from the FCCT? From Jonathan Head? The closest thing I see to communism here is your comments!
My God, what a fool...
I would have given the British a bit more credit for intelligence than what has come across in your posting here. If you think that Thailand's has some holy right to emulate its friendly neighboring country Burma, you need to go to school to learn a few things.
If you love the monarchy, that's up to you. But don't call yourself a democrat or pro-democracy and at the same time put out such trash. Take a hike. Or get local citizenship.
Anyone in any manner at all familiar with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other international standards Thailand is either obliged to honor or should oblige itself to honor will almost regurgitate at the ignorance apparently being professed by anti-FCCT writers on this blog.
Human decency? Understanding? Tolerance? No, don't hand out any of these, but instead accuse those seeking legitimate expression as 'interfering.' Talk about ignorance!!!
Ha Ha Brian, lighten up can't
Ha Ha Brian, lighten up can't you see you were trolled. Rowley Birkin QC hooked a trout!
"I am Brian and so is my wife"
I read Thailand Tip newspaper
I read Thailand Tip newspaper and see that the Thai government has attacked Queen Elizabeth from a bordello of media pimps und whores. If this story is true than I think that this FCCT is doing very bad for Thailand. To be a journalist you must have ethics. I think now they prepare guillotine and arrest warrants - even Thaksin is running, I think that this reporters are dumb heads supporting a fascist right wing movement, you are correct they are not communists they and Evil Media Nazis.
Thailand is good country and you must respect the country you are in. Making noise to change good laws is dumb and dangerous.
Before they catch Australian in Airport when he try to escape his evil words I think this time nobody will dare try to fly away - in Germany now the people know how bad is Thaksin and how he kills people. This Red Nazi Reich will end soon!
Michael, Frederick, Gunter...
Michael, Frederick, Gunter... will you make up your mind and finally choose ONE name for your idiotic posts, please?
Phra Siam Thevathirat has
Phra Siam Thevathirat has heard our call and will save Thai nation. We know about FCCT pretending to be nice to the monarchy with the Book they publish.
FCCT use Thaksin Velvet Glove and Iron Fist strategy to try to camouflage the attack.
Ms Luksna exposes camouflage techniques used by media manipulators. It is amazing Thailand when just one old lady can expose these evil "reporters".
Nattawut, go back to your
Nattawut, go back to your videogames, it's better :)
As a regular contributor to
As a regular contributor to New Mandala, I'm embarrassed to see a person with the same name writing a very silly post here, where a number of NM habitues also post. This person identifies his preoccupations in Thailand by his crude sexual references as well as his attack on a man who has lived here for many years, & who is consistently contributing to the Thai society with his local newspaper in Esan, on the basis of his age. Big 'M' Michael is obviously a tight-arsed, uneducated airhead & probably a sexpat, since he is incapable of concealing his sexual immaturity & fear of older ( &, in the case of Frank, wiser) people. If the best criticism of Kh. Kornsilp you can come up with is on the basis of her age, then I fear you are possibly a victim of early-onset Alzheimers, possibly brought on by excessive alcohol intake.
Re. the writings of Kh Kornsilp, and her allegations, I'd like to know what she's going to produce as evidence for her assertion that there is a covert "underground movement to destabilize Thailand's economy and internal security," of which the FCCT is apparently a major part, & the alleged LM is the modus operandi. In a proper court she would be required to show evidence of the existence of an organisation dedicated to those aims & activities.
Could it be that, having published these allegations widely she may now be in the firing line for a whole series of actions for criminal libel?
Does anyone know which of Thailand's universities is supervising her doctoral research? I most sincerely hope her dissertation is in (her) English & contains examples of her flawless logic & wonderfully expressive language, as evidenced in the Press Release & article above.
http://forum.serithai.net/vie
http://forum.serithai.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11588&p=178502
This website has lots of evidence proving that the FCCT is clearly part of the underground Thaksin Republican movement that started in the Bush Era and will now finish in the Democratic Obama era.
Serithai web? I once or twice
Serithai web? I once or twice visited this site and... I don't want to give comment on it too much. Suffice to say that thinking people can judge by themselves the quality and 'neutrality' of this site and the political stance of most of its commentators/participants/moderators.
If there really is an
If there really is an underground Republican movement, it would have existed long before Thaksin & Bush came along, and one only needs to read Handley's 'The King Never Smiles' to get some idea why it would exist.
The fact that Handley's book is banned in Thailand is syptomatic of the concern many 'thinkers' have about the way things are done in Thailand.
My own gut feeling is that there is no real/significant desire for a rebublic in Thailand, and most of the detractors really just want more transparency, and freedom of expression & opportunity.
Thaksin is a 'red herring' on these matters, but the old elite like to link him wth some so called underground republican movement so they can 'kill two birds with one stone'.
What is a "red herring"?i
What is a "red herring"?i guess it's some sort of idiom?
My dicionary says red
My dicionary says red herring = something that is not relevant that makes you confused or takes your attention away from what you should be concentrating on.
It is a good dictionary, isn't it?:-)
Hobby, I think generally you
Hobby, I think generally you are right by saying that there is no real desire for a republic in Thailand. But I personally think that Jakkapop might have his own creed which is more extreme than other red leaders. His extremism echoed what he implied in several press conferences, although I am not sure if those statements are punishable with the current LM law.
Joy. Koizumi is the first Japanese PM who accampanied his older sister with him to the Summit. He devorced in his 30s and has not remarried since then. It's a very unique behavior for a Japanese politician. His opponents accused him of lacking compassion to his ex-wife and his son living with her and gave him a nick name "a freak", Henjin in Japanese . I think this is what your friedns mean to you.
But the real problem about Koizumi's premiership is not his personality problem, but his popularity which sometimes concealed the negative affects of his policy on the ordinary Japanese. He is also the first PM who paid homage to the Yasukuni shrine, which honors Japanese soldiers who died in WW2 including the war crime convicts of Tokyo War Tribunal, every year, since Nakasone did that. His action brought about the tension with China and Korea, but very popular among a lot of Japanse.
So he is at least a contraversial PM, but probably was most liked PM since the last war, mainly because his straightfoward apporach to solve a series of problems, which is different from conventional politicians, in the time of economic cirisis. (His political background is very conventional actually, but his performence was different.) He is still very popular for a LDP politician, so I think he might come out of his retirement(he decleared he would not run for the next general election) , and reorganize the LDP after the expected miserable defeat of them in the next election.
This is my personal opinon on him, other Japaense think differently.
Cheers
Somsak, Thanks so much for so
Somsak, Thanks so much for so informative post abt Koisumi!!! Yes, you are right. My Japanese friend feels he was not kind to his ex-wife so she seems to dislike him for that.:-) I will reread yr post once more. I dont know much abt Koisumi but I found his look and personality striking to me. And wikipedia seems to say he is the most interesting JP PM as well!!:-)
This is an interesting tip (I
This is an interesting tip (I hope) about Japanese politics.
PM Aso=The great-grand son of the Ex-PM Sigeru YOSHIDA
PM Fukuda=Son of Ex-PM Takeo FUKUDA
PM Abe=Son of Ex-FM Shintaro ABE and the grand son of Nobusuke KISHI
PM Koizumi=The son of ex-Health Minsiter
These are the family background of Japanese Prime Minsters in the lat ten years. It's easy for me to take more examples. You understand why Japense people are so fed up with the current state of Japanese politics, don't you? And unfortunately, Yukio HATORAMA, the opposition leader who will surely become the next prime minister, is the grand son of ex-PM Ichiro HATOYAMA. We will choose him simply because there is no other choice in order to change the government.
I guess that the politics in other countries are more or less similar (although that of Japanese are very bad in comparion with other "developped" countries) That's why the election of OBAMA was suth a fresh air not only for Americans but also for the people in the rest of the wrold, I guess.
Joy: Yes that dictionary
Joy: Yes that dictionary seems good - presumably you are also familiar with the 'kill two birds with one stone' saying?
Somsak: I'm not really sure what to make of Jakrapob, but in a way I can understand why some have turned so 'extreme' as they seem to be battling a very ruthless & intractable foe.
Can you explain why Koizumi paid homage to the Yasukuni shrine? - it seemed a fairly extreme act to this non-Chinese, non-Korean, non-Japanese, non-Thai observer.
Somsak, I'm curious. are u
Somsak, I'm curious. are u implying that Japan's success has little to do with Japanese politicians? Is the sucess mainly a result of Japanese people's work ethics and determination? (and of course education) Can the same thing happen in Thailand?--- ( People do not have to rely on politicians when they want to lead the country to success and prosperity?)
Wonder what is yr opinion of America's role in JP immediately after WWII?
Hobby, In Thai we have
Hobby, In Thai we have similar expression ..something like " Kill two birds in a single shot"...:-)
Nobusuke KISHI was also
Nobusuke KISHI was also Ex-Prime Minister. (I missed it) So If Hatoyama becomes the PM(and I think he will surely do), we will have 4 PMs from ex-PM's familywas consecutively.
Hobby, Most simple explanation is that he has the right wing ideology. But I think more important factor for him is his constituency. His father was an ex-health minsiter, which is the position in charge of the pension fund for the bereaved of the solders who died in the last war. The family association of the bereaved of soldiers, who are the beneficiary of the fund, was an important political base for Kozumi's clan. And this association is the strongest advocate to pressure politicians to pay homage in Yasukuni shrine on the August 15 memorial day. Koizumi promised with them to go to Yasukuni on the day as the PM, (usually PMs in Japan do not go to Yasukuni on that symbolic day to avoid the contraversy) before he was elected as the PM. He kept that promise to court their constituency. This type of attitude (loyalty issue) usually receives both positive and negative responses from the people in domestic politics in Japan. In his case it contributed to his popularity.
Politicans are imporatant
Politicans are imporatant when they made a big decision at histrical junctions. Retrospetively speaking, I cannot but say that conservative politicans in Japan made a right decision in choosing their ally. For example, Kishi, the grandpap of Abe, is a notorious ex PM and a former war crime convict as one of the architect of Manchurian occupation, but he was right to push through the continuation of millitary treaty with America.(He had to resign in exchange for that, facing a huge protest organized by the left.) Non-alaingment was most-ideal path in those days, I guess, but it would not work in the geopolitics under the cold war. If you don't have major ideological issues, the only thing we have to consider is how to build fire under our politicians to force thme to work for our benefits, and to make them fail in the election is the best way to do that, which Japanse people will do in the next election held on 30 August. Cheers
Somsak & Joy, without wishing
Somsak & Joy, without wishing to be offensive, I'd like to suggest that your conversation be continued elsewhere. It's completely stopped the thread. I'm sure, having read both of you in other discussions, that's not your intention...
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
michael: But its hard to
michael: But its hard to imagine what more can be said about the brainwashed &/or vindictive idiot that this thread is about.
Also, IMO, the discussion regarding (Japanese) politicians using nationalism/playing to constituents, and regional inter country relationships, do have significant relevance to the Thai political situation, if not directly related to the aforementioned idiot.
Sorry!! I put my comments
Sorry!! I put my comments about Japanese politics on the wrong thread. I noticed it now. Sorry for having disturbed your discussion.
Somsak, it's my fault for
Somsak, it's my fault for leading you astray from the main thread. In fact, it's me who initially posted wrong questions/comments in the wrong thread. My apologies.
Well, I like to be the odd
Well, I like to be the odd man out, so I'm NOT going to say sorry - If I did, I would not mean it anyway:)
back on topic: Perhaps we should be thankful for people like Luksna Kornsilpa for helping to open peoples eyes to what a sick joke the Thai political system really is, hopefully hastening the inevitable demise of the plunderers.
Hobby It's obvious that the
Hobby
It's obvious that the underground republican movement or whatever you'd like to call it, is a mere excuse to purge Thaksin from Thai political realm. It's that simple and I believe it's true according to what happened recently in Thailand.
The traditional elites are so determined to make sure their threat will be handled appropriately and timely at all cost. Eventhough the cost means the whole nation's interest. For they still think they represent the nation. Their security's equivalent to the nation security.
To make a comment like this might pose myself to be one of the republilcans too. How scary?
Doctor J: I admit I'm no
Doctor J: I admit I'm no expert, but I still see it as 2 separate battles/wars, and they are only really linked due to the age of a certain person, and the apparent popularity of another person.
well, well... the point is
well, well... the point is also: in a country where it's obvious that republicanism has very slim chances of ever becoming a reality, why opposing it so staunchly? Why can a person be arrested for simply advocating republicanism? Personally, I think Thailand should remain a monarchy, albeit it should drastically improve its system of checks and balances, getting rid of the detrimental army influences (I am aware I'm entering the realms of science fiction here). Thing is, republic has been more or less tried before (Seri Thai - the real one, not the bogus website - and its two main "faces": Phibulsongkram, and Pridi Banomyong), and it proved to be able to stir up ultranationalistic sentiments even more than monarchy does, so it's not the panacea many believe it to be. Certainly, a more open discussion about republicanism, without this censorship, would definitely increase the level of constructive criticism. The way things are, with a (probably non-existent) republican movement forced to stay underground, present a potentially more dangerous situation. Which is what the powers that be probably want.
There won't be open discussions about anything at all, though, as long as the educational system stays the way it is.
Hobby, Carol Reed's film !?,
Hobby, Carol Reed's film !?, anyway thanks.
Thaksin is a deadly pragmatic politician. He would never take it serously even though some of their henchmen might have a different dream.
Somsak: Agree - no politician
Somsak: Agree - no politician would take it up unless they saw it was overwhelmingly popular - however, never say never:)
Are you a film buff?
(sorry, off topic again:)
Alex: I also agree with you again - Checks, balances & transparency
Hobby, no not so much. I only
Hobby, no not so much. I only watched "The Third Man" Maybe Alex is in the category. see you
no no, I appreciate and like
no no, I appreciate and like good movies, and try to keep up-to-date, but I am totally a "music-man". I like all forms of alternative music and I dedicated a considerable part of my life to it.
I think that Bangkok Pundit
I think that Bangkok Pundit is a bit harsh branding a media club as "brothel of treacherous criminals", I think that the "Foreign Criminals Club of Thailand" is sufficient.
Lesson 1 of journalism - just because you work for a big media firm does not mean that you are above the law.
I wonder if FCCT members would run Luksana's story?
I wonder whether they would invite her as a speaker?
What's happening to BP? I
What's happening to BP? I thought that the Bangkok Pundit was anti-PAD and pro-Thaksin. Their political incliantion was very clear.
I wonder whether they would
I wonder whether they would invite her as a speaker?
Does the FCCT do comedy nights?
btw, what's Bangkok Pundit got to do with it?
Alex: You must have very wide tastes to like all forms of alternative music - I like a lot of alternative music, but some of the stuff is right 'out there' and very hard for me to get into.
About FCCT and Higgins'
About FCCT and Higgins' "brilliant" post: I am quite sure the FCCT would be more than happy to invite Luksna. I would definitely attend, and bring a lot of pop-corn and a tape recorder: it would be interesting to notice how, among the general laughter, following her own definition of LM, even Luksna would ultimately incur in it and bring some charges upon herself. The point is, Mr. Higgins, would she be brave enough to actually go there, talk, and answer the public's polite questions? Honestly, I don't think so. And I truly hope to be proven wrong.
Hobby: well maybe my "all forms of alternative music" didn't really mean "ALL". But then again, yeah I find all of them interesting, and I don't necessarily like all of them. There's some very good stuff in Thailand too, hope you give it a try.
There's no denying that FCCT
There's no denying that FCCT folks lived a couple of years in anticipation of some serious changes in Thai political system, what one poster here called "inevitable demise of plunderers" and another called "changes needed to bring about a just and democratic society".
By Thai laws those fall under treason, however, so it's all catching up with FCCT.
Has FCCT become a major arena for propagating these ideas? Because that would make them criminally liable.
As I see it, they thoroughly enjoyed providing space for various "revolutionaries", it's up to the court to decide if it was a conspiracy or simply lunacy - it's not foreigners' business to facilitate regime change in Thailand, I think any sane person would expect confrontation with authorities for doing that.
'Facilitating regime
'Facilitating regime change'???
How about just 'calling a spade a spade' and facilitating an opening of eyes
- That should not be a crime anywhere!
Alex: Morlum is my favorite Thai music (is it actually Lao?) - I guess it counts as alternative music in Thailand nowadays, as is hardly visible on tv in today's Thailand.
This "opening of eyes"
This "opening of eyes" operation or whatever you want to call it happens to fall under Thai criminal laws. Did FCCT folks think that they are exempt? Really?
And if they want new laws for this country - that's where "opening of eyes" meets "regime change".
Maybe it was an exercise of
Maybe it was an exercise of opening eyes to DUMB LAWS :)
Trep: While we are talking
Trep: While we are talking about laws, I would be interested to hear your view of what should happen to those who breach terrorism laws of the country (by invading airports)?
Will you be pushing for the death penalty?
And anyway, when the FCCT was
And anyway, when the FCCT was some sort of unofficial mouthpiece for the anti-Thaksin movement (in times when Thailand stood massively on Thaksin's side, carelessly overlooking all the human violations and abuses), people were accusing the FCCT of standing in the way of Thailand's national interests. In the end, it's always the foreigner's fault, in Thailand. But for some reason, the wallets of the rich and the powerful Thais - whatever the side they're on - keep getting fatter.
Trep, you write "By Thai laws those fall under treason, however, so it's all catching up with FCCT". What exactly does? And please, be so kind, name or quote those laws. I am curious, and open minded. If there's anything that really constitutes treason in what the FCCT does, I would like to know. Just saying that it falls under treason doesn't really explain anything. My feeling is that you don't really know what you're talking about.
What is catching up with
What is catching up with FCCT? Toying with ideas of regime change.
Some people here argue that regime change is needed and FCCT was doing the right thing. That may be so, but for FCCT it will be equivalent to entering a guilty plea - Yes, Your Honor, we were engaged in a conspiracy to overthrow Thai government and other state institutions.
Could have worked out fine if the revolution succeded and they were on victorios side, but when it fails - treason charges for everyone involved.
Is it what foreign journalists come to Thailand for? Spread "democracy" via revolutions? Do they feel like some kind of missionaries on a holy crusade? Have they lost their minds?
There are plenty of criminal code articles mentioned in that "press-release". Campaigning for republican system is explicitly prohibited by Thai Constitution, for example, I'm sure there's enough back up in the criminal code for it, too. In the press-release they say something about a minimum number of participants to qualify for some really serious conspiracy charges. I think FCCT board passed - they got eight members charged.
Also note that the writer avoids repeating LM comments, as it is against the law. FCCT board thought it doesn't apply to them, so they sold their DVDs. Apparently they have been told that it's not a good idea, so they restricted sales to members only. Geniuses.
They had it coming, and they were practically asking for it.
Sorry Trep, I still can't see
Sorry Trep, I still can't see the possible charges. So far I haven't read any statement from the FCCT that says they advocate or campaign for a republican system. But of course I don't read EVERYTHING, therefore, if there's any such thing, I would like to know. So far the only recent call for a republican Thailand that I read was Ungpakorn's manifesto. Also: frankly, I don't think any of the board's members will be charged with LM. At least under Abhisit's government.
No one has heard anything
No one has heard anything official from FCCT, I was talking about their "defenders" here. Hopefully FCCT board won't be so stupid as to admit facilitating "demise of plunderers".
So far it appears that on three occasions speakers at FCCT were subsequently charged with LM and FCCT distributed copies of their speeches to the public. Not difficult to imagine how prosecutors might turn it into conspiracy charges.
In real life, however, I also think the charges will be dropped, but not before FCCT gets a good whipping and distances itself from republican movement.
Alex,Hobby Don't you guys
Alex,Hobby
Don't you guys notice that these kind of acts( threaten to FCCT etc ) did happen from time to time, especially when the traditional elites felt 'threatening'.
Regarding the charge against the FCCT, they are liable to LM if they continue distributing the alleged 'messages' after the speaker was already prosecuted. But quite unlikely to be charged for distrbuting prior to that time point.
All stooges here and elsewhere will actively continue the republicanism scaremongers until their boss feel the threat is 'over'. And I don't think it'll be over soon.
Again, this is Thailand, where a bunch of oligarchy's interest is the priority.
Doctor J is right (these kind
Doctor J is right (these kind of charges happen when traditional elites feel threatened), but only to a degree, I think. Republicanism is a threat not only to the elites but to the stability of the whole society - I don't think anyone would deny that Thais are extremely protective of the monarchy and there will be major bloodshed if republicans try to sneak in their system via "peoples revolution".
Whatever the reasoning behind the latest prosecutions, legal outcome is the same - republicanism is outlawed here, and will stay that way for the foreseeable future, it's not even on the cards in consitution amendements.
No sane person would think
No sane person would think the FCCT is calling for a republic, or facilitating one.
If the laws prohibit even discussion of republics as a political system, then IMO those laws are DUMB & REPRESSIVE.
The mention of 'demise of plunderers' came from me in this comment:
"Perhaps we should be thankful for people like Luksna Kornsilpa for helping to open peoples eyes to what a sick joke the Thai political system really is, hopefully hastening the inevitable demise of the plunderers".
That has nothing to do with the FCCT, and more to do with my opinion of people like Luksna whi IMO are either brainwashed, vindictive or both.
You will also note that I did not name the 'plunderers' so any assumptions you make about who those plunderers are is purely speculation on your behlf, and perhaps it would be a good idea to examine the reasons why you speculated as such.
I also want to make it perfectly clear that I have nothing whatsoever to do with the FCCT, have never been to one of their events, however I do admit to admiring their stance of allowing people from all sides of the fence to have their say and be questioned about it
I'm sure FCCT would argue
I'm sure FCCT would argue that they weren't facilitating a discussion on the need/ possibility of the republican system in Thailand.
I don't know if they would be honest about it, though. I have my doubts. Quite what is their end game was is not clear. They were stupid enough to invite one LM offender after another and then sell their tapes, I won't be surprised they had no clue where it was all going, just went with the flow, on the wave of adrenalin rush.
As for courage to allow people have their say - they are free to do that, but there is also criminal liability. I believe both the author and the medium can be sued for LM or for defamation/libel. It's up to the lawyers how to formulate the charges, out of FCCT hands now.
They shouldn't have allowed themselves to get into this position in the first place.
Hobby, Doctor J, Trep, I read
Hobby, Doctor J, Trep, I read all of your comments with much interest, and frankly I think there's a large degree of truth in each one of your statements. Still, there is one thing I don't quite agree with, and it's in Trep's last comment. Why do we have to look at the FCCT as some kind of political party? Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand means what it says: a club where foreign correspondents of foreign big and not-so-big publications can meet in order to discuss their opinions about all things Thai. Frankly, I doubt that everyone at the FCCT (and even in its board) thinks the same way, and I truly don't think they have a political agenda. If there's one goal we can be sure of in their stance, is to broaden freedom of speech and freedom of the press in a country where there ain't much of it, and even that little is decreasing, after the almost fatal blows inflicted by Thaksin administration first, and - even more - by the coup later. Now, freedom of speech is not exactly an unworthy cause to advocate, or is it? And advocating it doesn't certainly constitute treason. Or does it? This said, I shamefully have to confess to not having taken part to any of FCCT activities too, so far.
Alex is right: it's
Alex is right: it's ridiculous to cast FCCT as an organisation with a political agenda. It's an organisation of some 900 members, including journalists from all the major & minor news outlets with a presence in Thailand, free-lancers, & anyone else who agrees to support the activities. It includes media workers from local press, including MCOT (the government-owned agency), Sondhi L's various companies, & the Red publications, Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, atheists, etc., etc.
It presents forums, guest speakers, book launches, press conferences & exhibitions of press pix by people of widely diverse views, and a fabulous international film series, & has an excellent bar & kitchen. It's to be valued in a town like Bkk - for many of us who don't want to spend our nights in girly-bars, etc., it's The Good Night Out, & an opportunity to meet interesting people & engage in interesting conversation (not necessarily political). Probably the only thing that members have in common is that they are in favour of a free media & free speech. People who are talking about FCCT as if it is a monolithic, one-view clique are simply ignorant and out of the picture.
Agree with Alex and michael
Agree with Alex and michael latest comments.
Of course FCCT is not
Of course FCCT is not supposed be a political party. According to Laksna, however, they (or their board) behaved like one. I, personally, agree that they overstepped their mandate and got carried away. Hopefully it wasn't too serious transgression to warrant a full blown trial. I don't think even Laksana herself wants them all jailed or something.
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I don't know what to say to a person who thinks that the laws in this country are dumb and oppressive. Get used to it, you have to obey them regardless. Also there are legitimage channels to change them, why don't you try those?
The same question can be addressed to the whole red movement - what they demand is impossible under current laws, and they don't have strong enough mandate to rewrite the constitution as they like, nor should they try to force their version down everybody else's throats even if they manage to get 51% of the MPs.
Trep, I hope you realize that
Trep, I hope you realize that your last comment is full of contradictions.
Maybe Michael is just
Maybe Michael is just explaining what the FCCT really is to the readers who don't know what it's like. He is right. It's become a social club more than a journalist organization after it relocated to the current place, the rent of which is more expensive. But his argument is not so logical because she sued the 13 board members, not all of the members who paid the membership fees.
However, I don't think the board members are monolithtic. Some of them, including Jonathan Head, had a leading role in organizing those events to look more "impressive" for their sources. It's an usual method for the journalsts to strengthen their relationship with their source.
I think Trep's main point is that the FCCT board members are arragant enough not to think much of the consequence of their action which could have a great impact on the future of this coutry. Their main defending point is "we limited the distribution of the CDs after we found that it might be illeagal", right? This is not so beautiful way for the defenders of freedom of speech.
More annoying point is that this LM charge may have negative effects on the quality of their reporting. This is true, in particular, for Jonathan Head. His reporting was, to say the least, erratic in the initial stage of the red riot. (He might have convinced me that the red version of "Yellow revolution of the Phllipines" was going on, if I had not been in Bangkok.) I think he was forced into the postion that the loss of the red will have a seriously negative impact on his professonal career. We can't expect objiective reports from him. BBC should call him back to make him cool down.
whatever, whatever, enough
whatever, whatever, enough with this nonsense anyway. Press, journalism... do you guys really know what these things are about? The purpose should be to expose facts, as close as possible to reality. And whenever it's about political issues, the journalists have the duty of making their stance clear. Press is supposed to be FREE, or do we have to discuss about that too? Sometimes reactionary conservativism can lead to deep misconceptions, it seems.
What makes you think that letting people talk in front of a very small crowd can lead to the destabilization of a nation's system?
And Trep, please give me a break. You say that we have to abide to the laws, which we all do, but then you say that there are ways to change the laws that are wrong, and then you write that the way FCCT chose is wrong. If talking and debating about laws that are deemed wrong (because that's precisely what happened at the FCCT, they TALKED) is intrinsically bad, then do you have any other suggestion? Any better idea? Revolution is wrong, political ideas that are different from the mainstream are wrong, letting people talk is wrong. What's right then? What are the "legitimate ways" to change the laws, the ones that we should try? Do you expect me, an Italian, to become a politician or a member of the Constitutional Court of Thailand?
Somsak, when have the FCCT members been arrogant, exactly? And when did they ever crossed the boundaries of their mandate? Meetings like the ones they organized are normal in any other country. With the exception of Myanmar, North Korea and a few African countries, maybe. Well, and Thailand.
What's wrong with people
What's wrong with people talking in front of small crowds? Nothing, if you put it this way. Prosecutors, however, can present it as insurgents manipulating media to provide international support for their cause. I'm sure red leaders jumped on the chance to get foreign media on their side in this "peoples revolution".
Let's see if police agree that there is substance to these charges before people start screaming oppression. So far it's one woman's complaint only. None of the major media picked up on this press-release, evidently there is not much support there.
IMO, FCCT were hugely sympathetic to the red cause, and if someone says they facilitated it, I won't be surprised.
As for changing the laws - you are correct, as a foreigner you/we are not given any rights to change local laws. Were FCCT board trying to avoid this restriction by actively supporting one side in a local political conflict? That's a recipe for disaster, and if you side loses - good luck getting away scott free.
Not to mention that their side tried to get what they want by seizing state power and not by democratic means, via their representatives in parliament.
China, Vietnam, Malaysia,
China, Vietnam, Malaysia, Buruney, Laos, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Siria, Jordan, Singapore and...... you have a long lisf of countries where it's not easy or impossible for them to organize this type of meeting If they could do the same thing,for example, in China, I would praise and glorify the FCC as Alex did.
I think we can call them "arragant" or "easy-going"(maybe this is more suitable word to descrive their attitude), if they are prepared so little for the consequence when they deal with the subject which has been a taboo in a country for many years, and the mishandling of which could lead to a civil war.
Yes, Jouralists can have their own opinion,or political creed. but they have to be objective enough to analyze the situation correctly.Otherwize, they will lose the trust from their viewer. (You should remember that his audience is not a group of supporters for a politica group) Jonathan Head is lacking in the latter because he got himself too close to one side, and the LM charges against him forced him even closer to the political force to the point that he can't see the situation objectively.
"Not to mention that their
"Not to mention that their side tried to get what they want by seizing state power and not by democratic means, via their representatives in parliament".
How can anyone write & believe such a thing after all that has gone on since 2006?
UNBELIEVABLE!
or were you talking about the yellows?
To my limited knowledge, the
To my limited knowledge, the Chinese themselves(mainland Chinese esp) are very defensive when foreigners/foreign journalists criticize their country/gov. If i remember it correctly, a few years back there was an outrage against...maybe CNN (not sure?) in China because CNN gave some criticisms of China or maybe depicted China negatively?? sorry my memory has failed me.. Thais could be very defensive too (when being criticized or when nationalism/national image is concerned) but to a lesser extent than what happens in China.. i think,
Although of course , some Chinese seem to welcome criticisms as long as they are valid..the same applies to some Thais..not sure abt the Japanese...and other nationalities (in Asia)
Jarkapob, FCCT regular and
Jarkapob, FCCT regular and perhaps some sort of a hero for the likes of Jonatan Head, is currently advocating armed struggle against Thai state.
I don't have a full picture of what the April riots were meant to achieve, but it was certainly not a democratic way to seize power.
I don't know what has gotten into FCCT heads, they've been ranting about 2006 coup for years now but don't seem to have a problem with government overthrow by violent mobs instead.
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If you want comparisons - what do you think could have happened to FCCT back in 2003 if they continuosly provided a stage for Hambali and distributed his speeches to the public? Remember him? Indonesia's Abu Bashir leutenant, he was apprehended in Ayutthaya and promptly handed over to Americans, never to be seen again. Do you think US State Department would have praised FCCT for upholding freedom of speech principle?
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Why do you think the news of Laksana's charges haven't been reported in FCCT member's media? I think it's because they are far more practical in application of freedom of speech than idealistic descriptions of FCCT in some of the comments here.
Great, then let's criticize
Great, then let's criticize the FCCT for THAT (for failing to defend freedom of press in the cases you mentioned about), and not for defending it, when they do. I would also like to remind everyone that the FCCT was one of the very few voices off the chorus of approval during Thaksin's 2 administrations. I am sure they would keep being critical even in case there's a Pheua Thai government.
I stated many times in the past that I have no sympathy for neither the yellows nor the reds, and although I can see some members of the FCCT are close to the reds, I think their stance is clear, transparent, and so far there don't seem to be elements that show any direct involvement of those journalists with the movement's activist/militant core.
About Hambali... Trep are you comparing Suwicha Takhor with a Jemaah Islamiyah terrorist who is directly related to the death of hundreds of people? We can obviously discuss about the Hambali case, and chances are my opinion will be very similar to yours, but comparing Hambali's background with Suwicha's is insane, really.
I was comparing providing
I was comparing providing stage to people who are perceived as threat to Thai and US national security.
FCCT has provided various leaders of the failed April revolution with all kinds of support. Why is it so surprising that their role is being questioned? They haven't even been charged yet.
I think I'm done with critisising FCCT as far as this press-release is concerned. Their general support for the red cause is a bit off topic, though it's exactly what got them into trouble in the first place.
Trep, your hypothetical
Trep, your hypothetical comparison (FCCT providing a platform for Hambali) is absolutely ridiculous. I can't think of anything less likely to happen, & I think it's very flaky, because it doesn't have any connection beyond perceived security threat.
In my earlier post, my intention was to point out that FCCT has provided 'platforms' for both sides (evidence of impartiality). This is partly because local reportage of politics & the events around them is extremely biased, making it difficult to know what's going on & what the players believe. In the forums, the speakers have an opportunity to outline their case, & audience members have an opportunity to ask questions, often quite confrontational ones.
I don't think there's any evidence that board members or correspondent members favour one side over the other. Where they are critical, it's more likely to be criticism of cover-ups, lies, violence, injustice, etc. From what I can see, most correspondents are very 'critical' of the leadership of both sides in the demonstrations & of both sides in recent governments. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are against Thailand; it simply means that they are using the skills of criticism to attempt to analyse what's going on, in an often confusing situation, to do their job of reporting. To attack them for doing that is to align oneself with people like Luksna.
I'm surprised at the number of posts here which seem to be against the public airing of ideas, and in favour of the view that foreigners have no right to comment on Thai politics, LM etc. The right to freedom of speech is part of our identity. When we fail to exercise it, our thinking becomes muddled because we have to go through complicated mental processes before we speak, & we finish up speaking in peculiar codes, changing meanings of words & phrases, and building up false concepts of reality, and harbouring resentment. Lying becomes an essential part of our personal culture. We cease to be able to conduct arguments on the basis of clear ideas, and we employ manipulative strategies. In short, we become dysfunctional. This is extremely unhealthy and counter-productive, both for individuals & the society. It can also lead to 'amok' behaviour...
Of course, FCCT board memers
Of course, FCCT board memers are not a group of conspirators, spy or something. But they are not so professional in many senses.
For example, have they ever invited PAD for their events? If they were really trying to listen to both sides, they must have tried hard to organize it. (Or have they? I am not 100 % sure because I don't follow every event of FCCT. )
By the way, Thai PBS aired a freeze flame for more than one hour. I almost believed that another cuop was taking place. They can be a "NGO TV", but they can't be as amteurish as usal Thai NGOs. Smokers are angry.
Yes, FCCT have had PAD
Yes, FCCT have had PAD forums, and Democrats too. Their programme is fairly evenly balanced.
I'm not going to argue the
I'm not going to argue the obvious, like Jonatan Head's bias. Laksana's whole case rests on evidence of FCCT bias. If people refuse to see it I won't try to persuade them. Not my job.
>>>
Abu Bashir and Hambali are "freedom fighter" for many muslims, and those muslims also have their ideology and the right to air their views, theoretically.
Unfortunately for them Hambali is a terrorist in US eyes, so anyone caught supporting him should expect some serious retribution.
Similarly, one should expect retribution for providing support to the enemies of Thai state, because that's how those red revolutionaries are percieved by security apparatus here.
I quote: "Similarly, one
I quote: "Similarly, one should expect retribution for providing support to the enemies of Thai state, because that's how those red revolutionaries are percieved by security apparatus here."
So this is fine by you???One just needs to accept what the State deems as right and dare not to think differently?
I mixed up with my thai
I mixed up with my thai language handle name, คน.
Michael, really? but when? It must be fairly long time ago, probably, before the cuop. (I'm talking about PAD. Democratsฦ, of-course, how can they ingnore them and do their job? It was the largetst opposition party(sigle), and now it is the government party.) I still don't think their program is "evenly balanced" if you see their events in last few years.
By the way, did anyone see the one-hour lapse of Thai PBS? There is no report about yesterday's disastor,which could go down in the histry of broadcasting. (If the same thing happen in other countries, doznes of technical staff be fired and more reprimanded, and the president of the network will resign the next day.)
Or it was just a falut of my cable operator? But I checked all other channels including ASTV, the Red channel, which are easily interrupted by bad wether because their signals are weak, and all of them were all right. Mystery.....maybe only for me.
One should not expect the
One should not expect the state to rollover and give up on its security just because some people think differently. At this point Thai state is very far from collapsing and it enjoys broad support among the population. It has legitimate right to deal with perceived threats.
"People revolution" failed, miserably, and those caught betting on the wrong horse should expect some kind of fallout.
Has it ever occurred to you
Has it ever occurred to you guys that maybe the democrats and PD members are refusing to talk at the FCCT because the questions would be too embarrassing to answer? That way, also , they can have smart people like you on their side, complaining that no one at FCCT gave them a chance to air their view. Also: as the country's government's "majority" and ruling party, I don't think the Democrats a lacking chances of making themselves heard. But of course this doesn't matter, right? It's amazing how some of you do their best to defend the powerful and are always more than happy to look down on the poor ignorant people who are obviously being exploited by both sides. As I said many times, I don't like the yellows and the reds, but I kinda feel for the latter, because at least their anger is justifiable (of course, though, fighting for Thaksin won't help them, but they'll understand that only after a deep reform of the educational system, if that's ever going to happen). But when I hear rich spoiled kids complaining about corruption when it's actually their own parents perpetrating those crimes, and then they even go to the streets for rallies whose not-so-hidden goal is to defend the interests of the rich, well... that pisses me off, excuse me if I'm very direct. The elite doesn't need to be defended, they already enjoy having the upper hand in everything.
I quote: " But when I hear
I quote: " But when I hear rich spoiled kids complaining about corruption when it's actually their own parents perpetrating those crimes, and then they even go to the streets for rallies whose not-so-hidden goal is to defend the interests of the rich, well... that pisses me off, excuse me if I'm very direct. The elite doesn't need to be defended,"
I agree with you here, and this somehow is related to Somsak's other post about rich, spoiled kids who drive like crazy.
"Has it ever occurred to you
"Has it ever occurred to you guys that maybe the democrats and PD members are refusing to talk at the FCCT ..."
Hold on, are they refusing?
It seems like a waste of time to argue possible reasons for something that didn't happen.
Alex, Democrat no, PAD maybe.
Alex, Democrat no, PAD maybe. If it occures to you for a moment that Dems may reject the FCCT invitations, I suspect you don't know much about Dems. (They are not that easy nut to crack.) About other arguments, I don't understand your point. At the end of the day, this is the power strugle between the rich and the rich, istn't this? I think you yourself accept it in your post.
Michael, I remember it
Michael, I remember it now(and checked it in the internert) Kasit was invited to FCCT last year to talk about New Politics. Although he is not a leader of PAD, his opinion must be quite similar to that of them. (Maybe)
Joy, That spoiled kid driving like crazy can be the son of a red sponsor, too, with almost same probablity.
Cheers
Kasit has been numerous times
Kasit has been numerous times labeled a "de facto spokesman for PAD". Now, if that doesn't make him a leader of the PAD...
Trep, we are arguing about something that might have happened (PAD/dems refusing to accept FCCT's invitations), just like we're discussing about something that might be true or not (and in my opinion obviously isn't, but I might be wrong) when we talk about the FCCT as a possible gang of conspirators. On the other hand you are the one who was blaming the FCCT for not doing something that they've actually done (inviting PAD/Dems, which they have done many times).
"People revolution" failed,
"People revolution" failed, miserably, and those caught betting on the wrong horse should expect some kind of fallout.
and if the boot was on the other foot???
Alex, "leaders" means a group
Alex, "leaders" means a group of top members of an organization who are involved in its decision making and in the postion to order other members, right? I don't think Kasit was involved in PAD's decision making, nor gave an order or instruction to the protesters.You can ask PAD supporters, then you will know they don't consider him as their leader. He had always been a lecturer who was invited to speak after the stage was set up, though he is a leading figure among the lecturers.
Jakapop is a univerally recognized red leader, who is now at large.
Alex: some months ago i
Alex: some months ago i guessed i'll see you around. & spinning still is your profession, chai mai?
Commons, sorry, wrong person
Commons, sorry, wrong person I'm afraid.
Here's a list, from FCCT
Here's a list, from FCCT Bulletins, of all the 'political' forums plus a press conference or 2, from Sept.30, 2008 to this week. If you're mad enough to wade through it, you'll note that PAD & their allies, the Democrats have received more airtime. n.b.- Nostitz is neutral. He's often cast as 'Red' because he covers that faction fairly, as he does the 'Yellows.'
8pm, Weds July 22, 2009
Political stability and the path of reform in Thailand - An evening with Prof Dr Borwornsak Uwanno and leading political commentators
- M.L. Nattakorn Devakula is a popular Thai analyst and commentator.
- Other speakers to be confirmed.
8pm, Weds, July 15, 2008
Book Launch: - Red vs. Yellow, Volume 1: Thailand's Crisis of Identity
by Nick Nostitz
Wednesday June 24, 5.30pm
Public Relations Department: Political Reform towards a Sustainable Democracy - Commemorating the 77th anniversary of Thai parliamentary democracy
Weds, May 13 - Political Reform in Thailand - a panel with leading analysts. (8.00pm)
- Dr Thitinan Pongsudhirak, is Director of the Institute of Security and International Studies and Associate Professor of International Political Economy at the Faculty of Political Science, Chulalongkorn University.
- Dr Michael H Nelson, Visiting Scholar, Faculty of Political Science Chulalongkorn University, and a Senior Research Associate, Southeast Asian Studies University of Passau, Germany.
Tuesday April 21, 2009
Democrat Party Spokesman, Dr Buranaj Smutharaks, who started as an aide to former PM Chuan Leekpai then became a party-list MP in 2001, will be the club's featured guest to explain the party's position on the latest round of the ongoing political upheaval.
Join us for what is sure to be an interesting discussion on how the top party in the ruling coalition intends to move the country forward at this time of crisis.
Wednesday, March 4, 10:00 am. Press Conference:International Scholars Call for Reform of Thailand's Lese Majeste Law. More than 50 international scholars and dignitaries have signed a letter to the Thai Prime Minister calling for reform of the lese majeste law.
-Dr. Thongchai Winichakul from Madison, Wisconsin
-Dr. Andrew Walker from Canberra, Australia
Wed, January 14 - An Evening with H.E. Abhisit Vejjajiva, Prime Minister of the Kingdom of Thailand, Grand Ballroom, InterContinental Bangkok, 973 Ploenchit Road, Bangkok 10330 (6:00 pm)
Tuesday, December 9, at 8:00
Tuesday, December 9, at 8:00 pm The State of Politics and the Way Forward for Thailand. An Evening with Veera Musikapong.Other key figures from the Truth Today/"red shirt" camp will join Veera Musikapong for the Q and A. An invitation to join the discussion has also been extended to two co-leaders of the PAD.
Tuesday, December 2, at 8:00 pm M. R. Sukhumbhand Paribatra, Democrat Party candidate for Bangkok Governor. Can the Democrat Party hold Bangkok?
Tues, November 18 - The Media's Problem with Politics in Thailand: An evening with David Armstrong, President and COO, Post Publishing Company PCL (8:00 pm) ...will reflect on the reality of the political and economic environment in which the media operate in Thailand today, how he has seen this environment evolve over the past four years, and how the circumstances here compare to his experiences in other countries.
Wed, October 15 - Thailand's Political Crisis: Whose Human Rights?
- Dr. Sriprapha Petcharamesree, member of the Thai Working Group for an ASEAN Human Rights Mechanism and helped write the country's National Human Rights Commission bill.
- Monthian Buntan, an appointed Senator and a leading activist for persons with disabilities in Thailand...Monthian supports the People's Alliance for Democracy as a member of the Group of 40,
-Prior to the session, the club will show a 10-minute slide show of photographs taken of the violence, by Nick Nostitz, a foreign journalist who has probably spent more time than anyone else at rallies of both the People’s Alliance for Democracy and the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship.
Tuesday, October 21, at 8:00
Tuesday, October 21, at 8:00 pm Thailand in Crisis:The Thai Media's Perspective - Kiatchai Pongpanich, a consultant at Matichon, a Thai-language daily - Pravit Rojanaphruk, a Senior Reporter at The Nation, an English-language daily - Sarosha Pornudomsak, ASTV, who formerly co-hosted a TV talkshow with protest leader Sondhi Limthongkul. ASTV, Asia Satellite Television, a free-to-air satellite television station from the Manager Media Group PCL, the publisher of Poojadkarn newspapers. - Chiranuch Premchaiporn, Executive Director, Prachatai.
Tues, September 30 - Reforming Thailand's Politics, an evening at the FCCT to discuss the controversial PAD proposal for a ‘New Politics’ for Thailand.
- Kasit Piromya, former Ambassador to Washington and Tokyo, and now a supporter of the People’s Alliance for Democracy.
- Korn Chatikavanij, Deputy Leader of the Democrat Party
- Chris Baker, author and lecturer on Thai politics
Hope the point has been made.
Hope the point has been made. (I'm not really an obsessive - just sick of uninformed bigots.)
While I was going through my FCCT email files I also came across the announcement that DVDs of forums would be on sale to members only(12th Dec.2008), & the one saying that they had been withdrawn (24th Dec.). The event in question was on 9th Dec. Jakrapob was not on the panel.
Michael, thank you. But where
Michael, thank you. But where is the event PAD leaders was invited? Of course, Dems were invited. As I said to you (as คน, soory for the confusion), how can they ignore the Dems and do their job?
Laksana accusations against
Laksana accusations against FCCT are based not of hypothetical scenarios of whether PAD refused invitations or not, but on actual events, backed by her evidence.
Whether her accusations can hold any ground remains to be seen, there's police, public prosecutors, and finally courts that have to validate them.
She has the right to file a complaint just as FCCT has the right to invite anyone to speak there. She can also be held responsible for filing a false complaint.
There is an invitation
There is an invitation mentioned in the Bulletins: "Tuesday, December 9, at 8:00 pm The State of Politics and the Way Forward for Thailand. An Evening with Veera Musikapong.Other key figures from the Truth Today/"red shirt" camp will join Veera Musikapong for the Q and A. An invitation to join the discussion has also been extended to two co-leaders of the PAD."
In the event, they didn't attend. I don't have information as to other invitations to PAD leaders, but I'd be surprised if there had been none, since there is no reason why FCCT would have denied them a voice. It's an organisation of news-gatherers, and PAD has been in forefront of the news. I'll ask someone on the executive for further info next time I'm there. Stay tuned...
Although I haven't claimed that PAD leaders have attended, influential PAD supporters, including workers for Sondhi L, have attended. And, as I've stated, the Democrats, many of whom have attended, were strong allies of PAD. There are signs that that is no longer the case, but until recently, there was a great deal of overlap. Abhisit now claims to have not supported PAD activities (Govt House & airport), but at the time there was no evidence that this was so, or that he tried to stop them.
Thanks to michael (with small
Thanks to michael (with small m!!) I think the evidence is now very, very clear. Is that ok with you, Somsak? Trep? Do we need to carry on much longer with this?
Thanks a lot michael, your patience and dedication is highly appreciated.
ooops. "ARE" highly
ooops. "ARE" highly appreciated. Sorry :)
Michael, I am not so
Michael, I am not so convinced. The timing is very much telling. Just after the airport protest and the PAD leaders were busy with dealing the aftermath of the protest. It's rather clear that their purpose was to let the red grill the yeallow, when their popularity hit the lowest. Anybody who have some political sense would suspect that some of the board members were orchestrated with the red leaders for their political gain.
Being a quite contrast to this very favourable attitude, it's still being the fact that they have never invited a yellow leader to make their one sided view heard in the press conference and sell the CDs recorded it to the public, right? (This is what they did for Jakapop, one of the most prominent and extreme Red leader.)
I think that the latter part (innitial selling of the CDs) might become an important point to judge the legitimacy of the official prosecution, if the prosecuters should take this allegation seriously. FCCT is aware of this, I guess, so they quickly offer their clalification that they limited the circulation of the CDs after they found that it could violate the LM law. How about this point, Michael? Do they always sell or deliver the CDs for the public after the event? Michael, I want to know this point for clarification.
Alex, I have never said that
Alex, I have never said that Dems were not invited by the FCCT. It's their routine to invite the government officials and the oppostion parties to their events. Actually it's you who wrote that Dems might refuse the offers of FCCT because they are afraid of having problems to find answers to foreign journalists. (That's why I wrote "Dems,no PAD maybe. And actually, PAD was invited at the worst timeing for them.) Nobody would have had such a childish idea, if they had ever seen Dems in the parliament. To answer questions form foreign journalists is a piece of cake for them, compared with the grilling of the opposition politicians, who have information(which the foreign journalists don't have) and use them with malicious intentions. They always have their own counter-arguments to neuralize their ciritisisms. (As I did here, That's why debate is a fun :) Maybe you think too much of the ability and influence of foreign journalists probably because of your self-claimed "privileged" position, I guess.
But anyway, given the situation that even Jakapop has not been officially prosecuted yet, (the prosecuters put off the decision for one month, again), I think that the FCCT board memers (except Jonathan Head, I think his case is a little more serious) will not have to worry too much, as other posters make of.
........(That's why I wrote
........(That's why I wrote "Dems,no PAD maybe. And actually, PAD was invited at the worst timeing for them AND quite understandably REFUSED it.)......
This is what I ment in the previous post. Cheers
Somsak, why do you think
Somsak, why do you think Jonathan Head's case is "a little more serious"?
I like "neuralise" - does it mean 'make nervous'? (Sorry, I know it's a typo, but you may have invented a new word!) Where did you do that, BTW?
CDs were never offered to the public. They were offered to "fully paid-up members" ONLY (this was specifically stated), on 12th Dec. 2008, for the first time, following a suggestion by a member after the forum on 9th Dec. I was present when the suggestion was made to a board member by a non-correspondent member. The suggestion was made as an income-earning possibility for club funds, on the basis of the forums being historical documents, & entertaining, and therefore saleable. The intention was to make all forums available, from that time - not just the one on 9th. They didn't 'limit' the sale of CDs; they stopped it completely, on 24th Dec.
I'm not a board member, BTW. Nor am I authorised to speak on behalf of the club. All that I've said is either personal opinion or contained in the Bulletins, which are available to members & non-members alike.
You seem to be suggesting that a certain very rich person may be paying board members to push the case of one side & keep the other side away. That really sounds like the sort of conspiracy theory espoused by dope-smoking drop-outs. Journos are pretty tough people with fairly acute radar, & I'm fairly sure that if any of the board were suspected of acting on behalf of a 'sponsor' with vested interests, they'd get the shit ripped out of them. Maybe you should get out more often. Come to the FCCT & meet people who are not habitually deferring to you, as students & junior academics have to in Thailand. Talk to people on an equal footing, without having them kneel at your desk & agree with you all the time.
I quote"Come to the FCCT &
I quote"Come to the FCCT & meet people who are not habitually deferring to you, as students & junior academics have to in Thailand."
so u are suggesting that in Thailand, people are often subservient, submissive and they always bow to authority while westerners (as represented by FCCT or those related to it) are those who always value freedom, egaritarianism and never submit themselves to the powers-that-be , eh?
The west/westerners is/are the anti-thesis of the east? And the east has to learn from the west?(otherwise u will be enslaved forever if u don;t listen to what clever westerners have to say?) English is our language and we are the one who dictate its use? Hey, this word is not in our dictionary, watch out , you are making our English less pure! Listen to what a native speaker comments abt yr English if u want to communicate effectively with us. We won't try to understand u bec it's us who can determine which is the best way to use English, Eh???
It's me "Joy" who wrote the
It's me "Joy" who wrote the above post. Feel free to attack me. I find yr post (michael's) arrogant and condescending.
Michael, thanks. Consipirach
Michael, thanks. Consipirach theory? Rich man. I don't understan what you men very well. As Trep pointed out, journalsit sometimes bed on one side to get better information and, hopefully, to become a kind of authority by proving his prediction is right. I suppose you have many journalists friends, (or you are journalists? ) why don't you understand this point? (And I think your argumenent is a little bit childish. It's better to be more civil.)
I think the chrge agaisnt Jonathan Head is more serious, (I mean in comparions with the charge against the FCCT board. He was charged before FCCT was right?), because that is about his own writing. I think he should not have used the word which can be understood in several ways in that contect. I don't think he will be prosecuted, but don't think the prosecutor will drop the charge, either. They will put him in limbo as long as possible, because it serves best for their purpose.(Is this gramatically right phra? :) I mean, they just want him to behave, I guess.
Cheers
Joy, I didn't say that stuff
Joy, I didn't say that stuff at all. You did. If I had, you'd be able to put it in quotes. I find all your assumptions arrogant & dishonest. Please don't be silly.
It is a fact, though, that Thai students do defer to their teachers, at every level from Kinder to Uni., and they do kneel at their teachers' desks, which is all I said.
" I mean, they just want him
" I mean, they just want him to behave, I guess
Somsak, what does 'behave' mean?
Continue the charade I presume???
Well I teach at a Thai Uni
Well I teach at a Thai Uni and it's me who have to 'defer' to my students. I treat them as my equals, and many time s they make lots of demands on me.
Thai society is changing. You knowledge abt Thailand is yr personal experience, you cannot generalize it and you cannot make Thailand static or fit into yr definition or impression of it, although of course you have all the right to say what u think abt Thailand. I also have the right to say what I think. What I want to do is to challege western stereotype of the East/Asians as submissive, subservient (as a way to highlight the west's superiority). Well, all I say about yr post is simply what I gather from what's 'between the lines". You can have yr say: speaking for yrself and saying that I'm wrong. If Prachatai sees my post as a personal attack (of u) they can delete it. I have no problem with that. I simply do not want westerners to try to fix Thailand/Thai people into their own categories and definitions.
Of course, my impression of yr post might be wrong , But it's just the way I read it (reading between the lines: so I won;t be able to produce the exact quote (verbatim ie)
I have no problem
I have no problem understanding Somsak's posts (and somsak always tries to make himself clear and apologize/make some corrections whenever he makes some typo mistakes) but i know of a number (or a lot of?) native speakers who wouln't try to understand us when we speak (English), simply because the accent is foreign to them.
When some foreigners speak or write Thai to me, I hardly have any problem understanding them, because I try to understand and I appreciate their attempt to learn my language. But i know of some westerners who won't make the effort to understand at all, and demand that non-native speakers make the effort themselves . Are we living in a post-colonial era? I think English has become 'englishes' and it /they should be treated as language not a sign of superiority.
Michael, are you preteding
Michael, are you preteding you don't understand? The prosecutors are hesitant to prosecute him, because they are not so sure to get guilty verdict in the court. They can't drop it because they are afraid of the political repurcussion. The best thing for them is to keep this case in limbo, wishing him not to write a contraversial stuff, again. Usually, they are dealing with the cases this way, whether it's a case of the red or yeallow, if the case is not so solid.
Do you understand the situation very well? I have some doubt.
Somsak: Are you pretending
Somsak: Are you pretending you dont understand by what I mean by 'charade' :)
btw, I'm sure a few believe I'm also now in the pay of a certain rich man (along with all those foreign journalists, newspapers, magazines, book authors, academics, non yellow bloggers etc - the conspiracy is massive :)
Joy, You sound like a good teacher, but perhaps you are the exception, rather than the rule in Thailand?
It also sounds like you had a good upbringing (enlightened parents?) or did you get your egalitarian attitudes from the thai education system, or from a western education, or maybe from spending time in the west?
I hope you both forgive my spelling & grammatical errors - unlike you two, I've got no excuses other than laziness or dumbness:)
Joy, sorry to write this, but
Joy, sorry to write this, but you're crossing the line here. Calm down. I just don't see all the offenses you've seen and complained about, on michael's post. And I wouldn't spend too much time defending Somsak, as he can definitely defend himself (with all respect, Somsak, and I am sure you understand what I mean). Joy, just like you don't like people to generalize about Thais, then I think you shouldn't refer to those opinionated people as "Westerners". Or, if you want to keep doing it, I am really fine with it, but then you should accept others' generalizations. I am fully aware - and you know why - that Thai universities are not the simplistic world that many foreigners think. And deference is often just a mask to cover up laziness. A deeper analysis of Thailand's academic world would be needed to face this topic, but the outcome might be worse than you think. Trust me, you know my background and what I'm basing my statements on.
Alex, But I simply state my
Alex, But I simply state my opinion. And michale can also speak for himself just like somsak (and he has already done that.) Aint I have the right to say what I think?
If Prachatai finds my posts offensive, then just delete them or ban my IP.What line am I crossing here? Do people have no right to read between the lines?
Are there only one way to read a post? I have already stated that my reading could be wrong but that's how i read Micheal 's post and i will stand by my opinion.
Somsak, thanks for your
Somsak, thanks for your clarification. I apologise for my rude remarks. It seems I over-interpreted the statement,"Anybody who have some political sense would suspect that some of the board members were orchestrated with the red leaders for their political gain." Quite a few people have accused journalists who write fairly about the Reds of being paid by Thaksin. That's a bit of a joke around journalists. (What do you think about the kneeling, etc., anyway? Don't you find it difficult to get good arguments from your students, & to help them to develop as individuals?)
Yes, I do know that journalists cultivate particular contacts. They have to, otherwise they'd find it difficult to get stories. As to whether they give preferential treatment in their articles, or more space to one side - that's rather difficult to do, because there are sub-editors & editors to deal with. These people are fairly sharp - they pick up 'unreasonable' bias. And they do cuts & pastes so ruthlessly that often a story doesn't have much resemblance to the original by the time it is printed. Even the work of quite famous journalists gets hacked around.
Which brings me to an interesting thing about Jonathan Head: Apparently some of the accusations against him are for material from the BBC website, which didn't come directly from him at all, but was thrown together from bits & pieces, some of which he'd written. Some of it was paraphrased by editors in London, who don't understand the dysfunctionality and prickliness of the Thai establishment, & think they can just write normal articles in straightforward language using ordinary words, about certain Thai figures, as they would about figures in similar positions in UK. Now Jonathan has to carry the can.
I think you're right re. no prosecutions going ahead, & not dropping (the possibility of?) charges. Quite useful to hold over their heads. Actually, no-one's been charged. (FCCT people, I mean.)
'best serves their purpose' :)
Hobby, it was you that who
Hobby, it was you that who wrote it. I thought it was Michael. What do you mean by the charade? I think it's a game of gesture, right?
I am not talking about the consiracy, we(maybe Trep, too) are talking about the trap which journalists tends to get in when they are working. If you read my post more carefully, you would understand this. "Rich man etc....) kind of theory is too childish to write even in Prachatai's level argument, although he is good in that he tried to make some research before he wrote something.
Alex, I think that she just got angry with Michael's scornful tone on Thais. Gue.ss the same thing was said on your own nationality. I think "political missonary"(in my classification Michael and you fall in the category, maybe Hobby is not, and my classification on myself is" left-hater who used to be a left" :) like him usually is so insentive to the feeling of the poeple whom they 'try" to teach. But, Michael already said sorry about it. So it's no problem.
correction: Actually I mean,
correction: Actually I mean, "Political missionary" like Michael is so INSENSITIVE(not insentive) to the poeple who "try" to teach. Sorry as always.
Micheal, why did you say
Micheal, why did you say sorry, after I toned up the criticizm of you? :) What a bad timing! Let's cool down toghether. Cheers.
"What do you mean by the
"What do you mean by the charade?"
Charade - see here
Somsak, you sound like you have been in or watching Thailand for a long time, and are intelligent enough to know, when I'm talking about Thailand, what I mean by Charade = Pretense/Deception/Farce/Pantomine/Travesty
I think that a lot of the
I think that a lot of the feeling that some Thais have that overseas reportage of certain aspects of Thai politics, LM, etc., is biased, comes from the fact that the overseas readers of the articles in question could never be persuaded that the other view is right or good. They see these issues much more in terms of morality, rather than as politics. How could you possibly convince a British or Australian person that a Thai who has been shackled, possibly tortured, humiliated, 'tried' in a closed court, tricked into confessing guilt, and sentenced to spend a 'reduced' term of 10 years in a cage with 60 other people, sleeping crammed together, washing & shitting in front of them, physically abused by brutal, moronic guards, deserves that treatment because they did some cartoons of someone? They'd think you were barking mad. (They know that some of their royal family collect the originals of such drawings of themselves.) So LM coverage in overseas press is 'biased.' Likewise the coverage of the PAD occupation of government house & the airport.
-"The government was elected, wasn't it?"
-"Yes."
-"So, what's the problem?"
-"Well 70% of the voters are poor and uneducated. They don't understand. They voted for the wrong party."
-"The wrong party. Hmmm. That sounds suss. Why doesn't the government just get the cops or the army out to move them all?"
-" Oh no, they couldn't do that."
-"Why not?"
-"Well, they couldn't. They wouldn't. Move them on."
-"Why not? The police & the army work for the government don't they?"
-"We can't discuss that."
-"Why not?"
-"We can't discuss that. We're not allowed."
-"Could you just try & tell me without saying the naughty bits."
-"No, you wouldn't understand, You're not Thai. Only Thai people can understand. We know. It's a Thai thing."
Somsak, what do you
Somsak, what do you mean:"They can't drop it because they are afraid of the political repercussion." What political repercussion? I can't see that Abhisit would be compromised - he's made statements to the effect that he thinks LM is being misused.
It looks to me, BTW, as though the cops are getting tired of Luksna's visits. Too much paperwork for them, probably. They've found that old arrest warrant - do you think that's the story? Or is it just a coincidence?
BTW, Joy: my remark to Somsak re. 'neuralised' was not a put-down. I actually like playing with words. Many English-speakers do. And, as far as 'purity' of the English language goes, get over it. Anyone who believes that a language with the number of words that English has, spoken in such a large number of countries as a 1st & 2nd language, and with so many regional variations, can be pure, is deluded. Looks like you've got a bit of personal baggage to deal with, heaping all that vitriole on me on the basis of your prejudices.
I don't think foreigners
I don't think foreigners cannot know or understand Thailand or represent Thailand in a well-balanced way. I do believe there are a number of westerners/foreigners who know a lot about Thailand, even much more than many Thai do. A good example is Dr Peter A Jackson at ANU , Benedict Anderson , Craig Reynolds , to name just a few.
And not all Thais are against western criticisms of Thailand.In fact, criticisms are quite welcome but they must not be the type of criticisms that promote western hegemony or the binary opposition between East and West.
Of course, western coverage of Thai political /social issues are helpful in that it can help to fight against local forms of political and social oppression ( i mean the ones imposed on local Thais by the Thai elite and middle class) but this does not mean that western hegemony has to be accepted. Foreigners also have to question themselves how much Orientalist images influence their perception of the other.
I never believe that English
I never believe that English is 'pure' and it should not be pure anyway.I don't believe in the 'purity' of anything. Everything in this word is hybrid in one way or another. . I respect native speakers' knowledge of English and as a non-native speaker, I'm eager to learn from them. They possess the knowledge but they are no longer the owners of the language. If u have no intention to put down on anyone, then that;s fine. and I never said my reading of yr post is free from preconcieved notions of things or bias. You can argue against my reading of it and i have said that already.
Michael, still awake? why are
Michael, still awake? why are you asking something obvious again? PAD will be opposing to the decision. And the prosecuters may be thinking that this is a good way to keep him from creating another problem. So it's senseless for them to go out of the way to declare the charge is dropped. His case is not as solid as other cases which were already prosecuted (Dar Tropido) or jugeded.
You are right, I don't think Abhist want to see him prosecuted. I think keeping it in limbo is best for the PM, too, for the same reason.
About "neuralised", I think some Americans actually pronounce the word in that way:). Good night everybody.
What I mean is . "His case
What I mean is . "His case (Jonathan Read's LM case) is not as solid as other cases which were already prosecuted (Dar Tropido) or jugeded," ........
but it's not so baseless as to say that there are not a grain of truth in it. This is another reason that the prosecutors are hesitate to make a decision. If the evidence in his case were as clear as Torpado, or Thakor, he had been already prosecuted.
Good night.
Apart from the possible harm
Apart from the possible harm to Mr Head, I quite look forward to the case being prosecuted, as it will further expose the charade:)
If they try to do it in a secret closed court, like they have with Darunee, then it wil actually shed even more light on the real situation in Thailand, as opposed to the image that is pushed.
Its a slow process, but the truth will eventually get out.
Hobby, me too. The prospect
Hobby, me too. The prospect of 13 foreign correspondents all being 'tried' is really something to look forward to. The cover would be blown! Unfortunately, though, I think Ajarn Somsak is right, & they won't prosecuted.
Somsak, thanks for that. It may be "obvious" to you, but not to me. I'm a novice concerning the complicated world of Thai politics & law. Anything you can tell me will be eagerly lapped up. BTW, re. your calling me a "Political Missionary" - no way! I don't know much about politics, & political theory bores me to tears. I don't like missionaries either. I am interested in human rights, including the right of free speech, though. That's why I'm interested in this issue. I don't engage in 'missionary' activities - I don't feel that it's my duty to teach anyone about human rights, but I'm offended, as a human, when they're withheld or abused. So I'm not going to shut up. I have good friends from both camps in the current political conflict & I recognise their sincerity, but I don't like their leaders. As far as LM is concerned, I have no vested interest in breaking that law, & no desire to do so. But I don't think the recent use (abuse, really) of the law has had much to do with protecting the institution it's meant to be protecting, & its application has been excessive & brutal. I think the abuse is part of an attempt by a group of extreme conservatives to stop a process of change that, if allowed to continue without violence, could be very good for Thailand and put things on a much more egalitarian footing.
"Tuesday, December 9, at 8:00
"Tuesday, December 9, at 8:00 pm The State of Politics and the Way Forward for Thailand. An Evening with Veera Musikapong.Other key figures from the Truth Today/"red shirt" camp will join Veera Musikapong for the Q and A. An invitation to join the discussion has also been extended to two co-leaders of the PAD."
Well, it seems like inviting unnamed PAD co-leaders was an afterthought. "Invitation to join the discussion" for "evening with Veera" - what does it even mean?
Simply inviting someone doesn't guarantee a friendly and hospitable atmosphere and doesn't mean neutrality of the hosts.
Foreign media has been very anti-PAD from early 2006. If FCCT was unbiased, it was their job to shed that image to get a reply to invitations. It's just good manners. Instead they went gaga over Jakrapob. No wonder PAD didn't reply. Kasit did, once, btw, as PAD representative.
>>>
"a certain very rich person may be paying board members to push the case of one side & keep the other side away. That really sounds like the sort of conspiracy theory espoused by dope-smoking drop-outs. Journos are pretty tough people with fairly acute radar, & I'm fairly sure that if any of the board were suspected of acting on behalf of a 'sponsor' with vested interests, they'd get the shit ripped out of them."
I don't know where this bribe theory came from, I probably missed it. The best reply imo, courtesy of Andrew Drummond, is still:
"You cannot hope to bribe or twist (thank God!) the British journalist. But, seeing what the man will do unbribed, there's no occasion to."
Quote attributed to Humbert Wolfe.
I still think that FCCT got carried away by revolutionary spirit, no big deal, they meant well, just don't do it next time. In that sense I completely agree with Somsak - the goal is not to jail them, the goal is to "keep them in line". And it's not a charade - there are certain legal limits as to what foreigners are allowed to do in a host country. Supporting a revolution is certainly over the top, anywhere in the world.
Supporting what
Supporting what revolution?
Presumably you are talking about the coup, as having elections and allowing election victors to govern does not sound like a revolution to me.
Hobby, I think you know the
Hobby, I think you know the difference between coup and revolution. Revolution goes with a drastic change of traditional political, social system, cuop does not, right? Cuop just changes a government. And the transition to the civilian rule was completed almost two years ago. Good night
Somsak, as promised, I've
Somsak, as promised, I've asked a board member at FCCT (the President, Marwan Maacan-Marker) whether PAD executive members have been invited, apart from the Veera evening. Marwan stated that there has been a standing invitation since long before the coup, as well as several specific ones, which haven't been taken up because of various more pressing engagements for those invited. The most recent invitation was at the press conference following the assassination-attempt, when he personally invited Sondhi Lim. That invitation has not yet been taken up, although it still stands. The 'Evening with Veera' was originally planned as a panel, with PAD & the Reds, but was given its name due to the lack of a response from the PAD.
Tonight's panel was 'Political stability and the path of reform in Thailand - An evening with Prof Dr Borwornsak Uwanno, Chaturon Chaisang and M.L. Nattakorn Devakula,' an interesting combination, I think you'll agree.
" Simply inviting someone doesn't guarantee a friendly and hospitable atmosphere..." Trep, you're right. That depends on the audience, and the club's policy is to extend an invitation, via their website, to anyone and everyone. Some of the questions from the floor tonight were quite hostile. For example, after Zaworki from Amnesty International had asked the 3 speakers to name the most important Human Rights issue in reform, & Chatura ( Thaksin's Deputy PM, 1 of the 111now barred from standing for election & voting for several years) had answered "Deprivation of political rights," someone asked him what he thought about the murder of nearly 3000 (Borwansak's figure) during the War on Drugs, and Tak Bai, etc., in the South. The question was applauded. The answer was evasive & met with rather unfriendly murmurs from the packed audience.
Trep, instead of giving all your silly misinformed "Well, it seems like blah-blah-blah" purse-lipped pronouncements, wouldn't it be easier to come to FCCT and see for yourself? You could even ask a question or two & dazzle everyone. You might even see Andrew Drummond there.
Trep, Somsak, there are none
Trep, Somsak, there are none so deaf as the ones who will not hear. You asked proof that the dems have been invited to FCCT. You were given proof. You asked proof that PAD members were invited to FCCT. You have just been given proof. Now, you can keep whining and come up with any other possible excuses, arguments and subtle ironies, the problem is, you're only going to sound like sore losers. When people make mistakes they're expected to acknowledge it, and if it's bad, then they'll say sorry. Maybe instead of writing long, boring, reactionary posts, you could consider doing that.
Somsak, I read your definition of "coup" several hours ago, but I'm still very, very nervous and upset because of that. From now on could you be a bit more sensitive in your posts? At least as a sign of respect for the people who died in the past, as a direct or indirect effect of coups in Thailand and abroad (and no: I am not referring to Thailand's 2007 coup). Coups are not only to "change a government", as you wrote. There are so many examples to contradict your statement that I'm not going to waste my or anyone's time with that, especially because, as I wrote before, it's useless to talk to someone who doesn't want to listen. Instead of spending your time trying to put labels on people, you'd be better off freeing your mind from prejudice.
Michael, thank you for the
Michael, thank you for the report. I was a bit surprised to know that PAD did not accept the offer from FCCT before the cuop, since Sonti must have been in the good term with foreign journslists in those days. About Villa's night, I think they sent the invitation to PAD, knowing that they would not accept the offer. Don't call me conspiracy theorist. Even Marwan would accept it. It's a kind of thing that they must have known, if they had been good journalists and seriously following the situation. Their intention is clear: let's grill PAD on the airport protest with the red.
Anyway, it seems to be true that FCCT board members tried to redress some balance in organizing their events, though it was not sucessful. It's always good to discuss things based on solid facts.
Regarding "political missionary", I mixed up your comment with the someone else's (his handle name is iiiii, what a name!) and accused you of the rude comment. Sorry!!
Cheers
"Cuop just changes a
"Cuop just changes a government. And the transition to the civilian rule was completed almost two years ago"
Somsak: I used to write such things, but cannot believe that any genuine follower of Thai poliics can still even think, let alone write, that after all that has happened over the 2 years.
Surely you have noticed that the government in power now is a lot different to the one voted in by the people at the last election, (and also the recent by-elections).
"Trep, instead of giving all
"Trep, instead of giving all your silly misinformed ..."
I think I'm done talking to you, Michael.
>>
"the government in power now is a lot different to the one voted in by the people at the last election"
What are you talking about? People do not vote the government in Thailand.
>>
Payap Shinawatra on choosing the next PTP leader:
"..when giving a house, you give it to your children or family members."
Anyone rooting for these agents of democratic change must be out of their minds or have some ulterior motives. Laksana thought it was a cospiracy against the monarchy, as good explanation as any other. My own explanation wouldn't be very flattering to FCCT members.
Somsak : iii is me!! You
Somsak : iii is me!! You think i made rude comments? Now I admit my attack of michael is perhaps over the board/irrational/full of bias/prejudice/preconceived notions of things etc. I suppose I should aplogize (both to michael and alex) and i apologize.
Sorry for off topic comments
Sorry for off topic comments again: but i 've just had a look at comments over at Prachatai Thai .. it's incredible the way people attack those who are different from them, purely out of malicious purposes..(in fact i have just done that sort of attack myself, and I 'm sorry abt that)but I saw a number of great comments in Thai there as well.. and I met Dr J there. Hope he posts here again soon.
Joy, really !?! Iwould check
Joy, really !?! Iwould check it. .........Right, you are accusing someoneelse's prejudiced comment in iiiii 's comment. Uumm...... so whose comment did I think was rude and made me call the guy "political missonary"? ...........I think this thead became too long.
Trep, I hope you won't start
Trep, I hope you won't start with such nonsensical equations as "defending FCCT = defending Thaksin". I am, and have always been against Thaksin even when most Thais (including generals, and most of current PAD members) loved him unconditionally.
When I spend some words to defend the FCCT - whose members and boards are total strangers to me - I am just doing it in order to defend freedom of expression.
However strange that might sound to you, I would do the same for the PAD, if some higher powers at some point decided to suppress their voices, thoughts and publications. As a matter of fact, I am defending Sondhi's right to uphold his point of view (we all saw how they tried to shut him up), and even Luksana's. But the same freedom should allow us to criticize and, in some cases, even ridicule some incredibly silly opinions or actions. Especially when these actions (Luksana's, for example), are obviously aimed at restraining that very same freedom they declare they're defending. By the way, by saying you're done talking to michael just because you realize you entered a dead end, you confirm my theory: you're a sore loser.
"What are you talking about? People do not vote the government in Thailand."
Let's not even comment here.
PS: I wrote "2007 coup". Sorry: of course I meant to type 2006.
Hobby, The red is not
Hobby, The red is not fighting with a government established by a cuop, but the government chosen by the MPs elected by the poeple. Whatever being said on military "conspiracy", the governemnt is considered legitimate by Thais and foeign govs because of this fact. That's why the red's call for the uprising to topple the "illegitimate" govenment did not go down with most of the poeple in and outside Thailand.
To your surprise, I even think that the considerably high pupularity rate of this government might partially come from the poeple's belief that it enjoys good support of the army, because it means more stable than previous ones. Army could change their alliance anytime, but the relationships with this goverment seems ,as it now stands, better than the previous ones in comparison.
This power struggle can still be solved as "a family quarrel" for Thais, if two factors do not get into the situation as domonant factors. "Foreign intervention" and "Republicanism" I think we (outsiders) should be careful not to escalate their problem by butting in other's business too much, because at the end of the day, we will not share a fate with them.
Greetings! Since the FCCT
Greetings!
Since the FCCT has been mentioned a lot in this discussion, and FCCT president Marwaan has been quoted, I thought I would post some additional information that those interested, may find useful.
Sondhi Limthongkul did indeed appear and speak at the FCCT in 2006, before the coup.
In 2008 I personally invited him twice. We invited Sarosha Pornudomsak to speak on a panel on the Thai media's coverage of the conflict, and she accepted but had to drop out at the last minute.
We subsequently conveyed a standing invitation, through Khun Sarosha, to the PAD leaders, to speak at the FCCT. Subsequently, this year, shortly after Khun Sondhi’s press conference following the assassination attempt, Marwaan personally invited him to speak at the FCCT.
I reproduce below an excerpt from my address at the FCCT's last AGM, as outgoing president, which offers further information on the FCCT’s programmes. It is available in its entirety on the FCCT's website.
Regards to all.
''We have always welcomed voices from across the spectrum of Thailand 's political and social opinion. In our programmes.. we always attempt to encourage balance.
''For months at the height of Thailand 's political turmoil in late 2008, we had a standing invitation extended to the leaders of the People's Alliance for Democracy and senior figures in the government at the time. Kasit Piromya spoke at the FCCT in his capacity as an advisor to the Democrat Party as well as the PAD. Bangkok governor Sukhumband Paribatra spoke here on the eve of his landslide victory in the polls. Dr Ammar Siamwalla spoke on the state of the Thai economy. Then-government deputy spokesman Nattawut Saikuar – now a key leader of the ''red shirt'' movement – also spoke at the Club, together with Jatuporn Promphan and Veera Musigapong, who were and remain very much in the news.
''When the Preah Vihear or Pra Viharn issue came up, we had prominent speakers on the topic who filled the Clubhouse. Ajarn Panitan Wattanayagorn, now acting spokesman for Prime Minister Abhisit, spoke here with Ajarn Chris Baker on the military.''
Somsak, you're speaking like
Somsak, you're speaking like Samak in the 1970's now. Not exactly a compliment.
Alex, I think Samak was
Alex, I think Samak was talking about communism if he said like me in 1970s. In terms of the fact that foreign intervention and communism were a serious threat to Thailand in 1970s, I agree with him. (But please don't misunderstand that the level of the threat is the same. You usually deduct wrong conclusion form wrong comparion you put by yourself, so my advice.)
If you are talking about my commnet that "Foreigners don't share a fate with the people in their host countries", it is a universal fact. Did the AP reporter share their fate with his assistant in the killing field? He might be one of the best reporters and may have done whatever he can to help him, but he still left the country when the worst moment came to his host country.